Retitled: Modern philosophers are full of it!

[Asher]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by GePap

As I said before, THIS IS THE QUESTION! Have the quantitative improvements made by computers been so great as to mean a qualitative change in the use of things, or the relation between people and systems?

Yes/No, explain.

Absolutely. Yes.

Computers make life more efficient. They eliminate lag times in communications, they allow us to run incredibly detailed simulations for dirt cheap, etc.

Computers are everywhere because they increase efficiency by orders of magnitude and, in turn, unlock possibilities for new innovations such as the internet.

I've used the word catalyst repeatedly because it's an important one. Computers aren't a simple one-off innovation that made number crunching easier, they serve as a catalyst touching virtually every field under the sun and helping them evolve at a much faster pace.

They are everywhere because they are important in this end.

[Kuciwalker]

Yes. The computer and the internet were enough to feed at least one economic boom-bust cycle already.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Asher

It's ironic because I gave you a bunch of very simple questions that you know there is no answer to, and responded "blah blah blah".

If computers are so trivial to be not necessary in today's world, why are they everywhere?

Yet another simple question for you to fuddle your way around with.

A, chicken**** logic at work.

Could you please point out where I ever said computers were "trivial"? You can;t cause I never said so. I have already stated that computers have made important changes in efficiency, and that is why they have spread so fast in many good, because everyone seeks greater efficiency.

I do not believe, on the other hand, that this greater efficiency has lead to fundamental changes in human life. That I do X faster and simpler does not mean I stop doing X. There might be a point where doing X has gotten so simple that in fact I don;t do it, and then that is a qualitative change brought about by a quantitative change. But for the most part, things have not gotten there.

Most people in businesses use computers (well, besides time wasting actions) to do what? Communicate with others (which they could have done by writing notes, talking with them personally, talking on the phone), or writing reports (which they would have done by hand or with typewriters otherwise), or doing research for a report, which they would have had to do before by looking for paper files and reports. From what I can see the changes mean increase productivity, but have the basic functions of the office workers changed? That they do the same things as before faster does not mean that they have stopped doing the same as before. THAT IS THE POINT! The quantitative change has yet to, in my opinion, become a qualitative change.

OH, LOOK. UNlike Asher, I can give a long, detailed, substantive arguement to a question he asks. So unlike Chicken****.

[Kuciwalker]

As a student my life is inconceivable to someone pre-internet - I have equal trouble conceiving being in his position. Consider: I wrote a draft for a paper today, on how politics and computing are interacting (specifically the ICANN issue), doing all of my research from my computer, composing it on my computer, using an internet service to prepare the works cited, while chatting with my gf over VOIP and posting on Poly.

[Kuciwalker]

I then emailed it to my English teacher who will look at it and grade it tomorrow.

[Asher]

Originally posted by GePap
I do not believe, on the other hand, that this greater efficiency has lead to fundamental changes in human life.

This is the crux of the issue.

I believe, on the other hand, that the reason that you do not believe ths efficiency has fundamentally changed human life is because you don't understand the pervasiveness of computers, and you take for granted technologies in your life without even thinking about them as a computer.

Every time you use a credit card, do you realize you're touching probably a dozen computers at least? Have credit cards changed consumer spending habits in the US just by themselves?

And that's just one, tiny, miniscule aspect of what computers have enabled...

[KrazyHorse]

GePap, if we had to run electronics off of vacuum tubes then, depending on the application, electronic devices would range from twice as expensive to a thousand times as expensive, to impossible.

A reduction in the cost of an international telephone call by a factor of 10 or 100 is enough to dramatically influence what it's used for and how prevalent it is. A reduction in the cost of air travel by a factor of 2 or 3 due to modern avionics (allowing larger, safer airplanes) and modern air traffic control is enough to dramatically increase air travel (to the point where the average first worlder now regards flying as not too out-of-the-ordinary)

A reduction in the cost of computing power (by a factor of billions) dramatically cheapens scientific and technical research, design, manufacturing, accounting, banking, ...

[Kuciwalker]

Hm.

I was also woken by a digital alarm clock, used a microwave with a computer inside it, recharged my cell phone, oh, and listened to music on my computer while doing all that homework stuff.

[Kuciwalker]

By the way, one of the sources I used in my paper was from a purely electronic news agency (CNET News.com), and another would have been basically inaccessible to me (the BBC).

[Asher]

Since we're all doing little rundowns on how we use computers in every day life:

I wake up in the morning with a digital alarm clock, but since I always whack the snooze button, it never really wakes me up. I have my cell phone's alarm set for the latest possible time I can wake up, and I usually have that wake me up as I have to get up across the room to turn it off.

I stumble into the shower and then get dressed. I walk over to my desktop PC and shake the mouse quickly to wake it up, then open up Winamp which plays MP3s while displaying visualizations on the LCD screen. I'll then grab some breakfast from my refridgerator (which has electronically controlled temperature) and bring it back up to my room.

I open up my laptop and browse Google News, calgary.cbc.ca, and various websites. I check my email, talk to various classmates or friends on MSN while I listen to my MP3s and eat my breakfast.

When it's time to go, I snap close my laptop and unplug it, then stuff it in my backpack. Similarly, I remove my iPaq from the dock where it was recently automatically synchronized with my laptop with the latest calendar information and emails.

I drive my car to campus; my car alone has 34 different computers according to the service manual (from everything to the digital clock to the temperature control to the electronic brakeforce distribution to the smart airbags to the hill/slope assist). In the car I listen to MP3s from my MP3 player.

When I'm on campus I'll listen to my MP3 player while I'm walking around, and occasionally I'll open up my iPaq and sign into MSN Messenger to see who is online, or check grades or lab pages online briefly using the campus-wide wireless internet.

When I get to the class I'll open up my laptop, connect to the internet via the wireless connection, and download the latest lecture notes and import them into MS OneNote. I chat with my friends online, from around the world, in real-time during the lecture, as well as post on sites like Apolyton. I also annotate the lecture notes in OneNote with my own, adding detail as I see fit and using the NotesFlags to flag theorems, definitions, conjectures, etc. for easy reference later.

When I'm at the gym on campus, the cardio machines use devices that measure your pulse as you use them. When you start, you enter in your height, weight, and sex, and it will calculate the optimal heart rate for your conditioning and help you maintain that by varying the tension.

When I get home, I whip out the laptop and sit on the couch and turn on the high-definition TV, which uses digital cable. The night before it has taped The Daily Show using the TiVo-like PVR functionality, so I press "List", select the show, and select Play and begin to watch the show while I surf the internet and chat simultaneously.

I'll then boot up the Xbox and play some NHL 2K6 or various other console games, frequently doing so online with people from around the world.

Since my boyfriend lives in Ontario, we'll video conference every night; sometimes while playing games online like World of Warcraft.

I'll do my homework on the computer, and then submit my homework electronically via a website. I'm immediately notified via email when the work is marked, and how well I did.

Which part of this is similar to a student in the 1950s? How can you say the computer has not radically changed modern life?

[Kuciwalker]

Oh, and think of what the internet has done for pornography!

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Odin

No, GePap is the one using faulty logic.

No he's not. From what I have read (and I haven't read all of it) there is nothing wrong with the logical structure of what he has said. One might dispute the truth of his premises, but there is nothing wrong with his arguments logically speaking -- at least the ones I read.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
No he's not. From what I have read (and I haven't read all of it) there is nothing wrong with the logical structure of what he has said. One might dispute the truth of his premises, but there is nothing wrong with his arguments logically speaking -- at least the ones I read.

It isn't the succession of logic that's at fault, it's the problem that his premise is actually the same as the conclusion, which are both nonsense and pulled from his ass.

It's a Jr. High-level argument, which is why he was walked all over. Not to mention his inconsistencies and arbitrary line-drawing to serve his purpose, and the subtle change of topics along the way to divert attention.

[Agathon]

GePap has wiped the floor with you two. He's asked the same, obvious question about ten times now, and both of you have failed to answer it. Hell, I don't think you even understand it.

That you keep accusing him of saying something that he manifestly isn't makes it doubly hilarious.

[Asher]

We must remember, GePap's argument started as this:

Comp sci mayors are useless. In 50 years almost all the work you will have done will be a joke, obselete, and no one will give a damn. They will leave no memories, a century later the only people who will know they existed will be some decendents, and maybe only while doing some absurd family tree.

But its good to know you have chosen a line of work with built in obselecence.

and has now ended up as admitting computers are very important (so I'd imagine this is an implication that computer science is important), and now he's off on some tangent about how it's not as important as Industralization.

If that's not pwn3ge, I don't know what is.

The fact that you think that his waffling is "wiping the floor" of us speaks volumes about why you're teaching about dead philosophers rather than Philosophy of Logic, or anything that requires slightly more of an understanding of debate and argument building.