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  • #31
    And Dusty had nothing to do with the starting pitching problems.


    Please, Sava. Dusty is WELL known for overworking young starting pitching. Prior, Wood and Zambrano have been abused over and over by Baker. Instead of being on strict pitch counts, Baker let them pitch.

    Interesting article (from the beginning of this year) to look over:



    3. Should I expect the same thing from the starting rotation as 2004? I mean, will the consequences of Dusty's abuse just carry over?

    Sure looks like it, huh? Kerry Wood and Mark Prior, who as I noted last year were both in the top five of the 2003 Pitcher Abuse Points (PAP) rankings, have been hurt again this Spring Training. This is not good news for a team that was so held back last year as their two stars gave them just 43 starts with a combined 3.86 ERA. I mean, the two contributed 25 fewer Win Shares than they had in 2003!

    So it is safe to say that those two right arms are the key to the Cubs' 2004 season, as eight wins were given up as a result of Dusty's pressure. Since neither player was around long enough for Baker to abuse last year, he focused his efforts on another stud right-hander, Carlos Zambrano. While hoisting the rotation on his shoulders for the better part of the year, Zambrano ranked third in Baseball Prospectus' PAP.

    Personally, my guess is that Zambrano is in the same mold of Livan Hernandez, Bartolo Colon and Russ Ortiz: the special group of players blessed with a rubber arm and thick, strong thighs. I will assure Cubs fans to expect more of the same from him in 2005, as there was no sign of him letting up last year. The one good thing you will hear me say about Dusty is that he loved Z from the first time he saw him, and even predicted he might be the best of the three young righties. Bold prediction then, nearly a fact now.

    Next, we have Greg Maddux. Maddux defied the prediction I laid out for him last year, with a 4.02 ERA, 32 starts and more than 150 strikeouts. While the likes of Barry Bonds, Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens make us think that defying age is something that can be done, it is hardly something the Cubs should depend on. My thinking is that Maddux will retire in a Cubs uniform, following the 2006 season. Expect that in the next two years, Maddux takes a step back.

    The fifth starter spot is another place where Dusty's affinity for sample sizes is apparent. Glendon Rusch, who was so influential in the Cubs staying in the hunt last year, will likely not begin the season in the rotation. Because of his poor spring, the Cubs will be left to decide between Ryan Dempster and Sergio Mitre. One thing you can depend on: Rusch will be back before too long. Or better yet, the Cubs will bring up Angel Guzman, giving Dusty Baker another young arm to terrorize.


    And the preview for the year before:

    There is a different feeling around the North Side this year, one of optimism. Following a trip to the NLCS, the Cubs are now the favorites to win the National League Central. Will they live up to…


    Finally, Dusty Baker must stop worrying Cubs fans about the right arms of our young starters. The Cubs were far and away the leader in Baseball Prospectus' Pitcher Abuse Points (PAP), a statistic measuring how much stress a pitcher's arm handles. Kerry Wood ranked first in the system, Mark Prior third, and even Carlos Zambrano finished in the top 20. 130-pitch games with an 8-0 lead just don't make sense, and Baker must learn from his mistakes.


    And this site has a great nickname for the man



    Dusty “Death to Pitching Arms” Baker
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

    Comment


    • #32
      that article is such bull****...

      that author is a moron...

      okay let's think about this logically... strong pitchers can take more abuse... Prior, Wood, and Zambrano are 3 of the strongest pitchers in baseball... of course they are going to pitch games with a lot of pitches some times.

      You need to listen to baseball sources and authors who understand baseball okay. Not morons.
      To us, it is the BEAST.

      Comment


      • #33
        strong pitchers can take more abuse... Prior, Wood, and Zambrano are 3 of the strongest pitchers in baseball


        Have any proof for this BAM? And apparently Prior nor Wood can take that much abuse.

        You need to listen to baseball sources and authors who understand baseball okay.


        You mean people who engage in bald assertions without any facts to back them up, such as yourself, rather than those who use statistical analysis to better show what is going on in the game?

        I think the 'morons' here are the traditional baseball folk. Not people who understand the game such as writers for the Hardball Times or Baseball Prospectus.
        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

        Comment


        • #34
          BAM?

          no that's common sense...

          like water is wet... fire is hot... ice is cold...

          what statistical analysis?

          that guy is a moron...

          and his logic is flawed... BIG TIME...

          he is saying Dusty is hard on his pitchers based on a break down of the pitch stats of Prior, Wood, and Zambrano from 2003 (THE YEAR THEY WERE 5 OUTS AWAY FROM THE WORLD SERIES)

          this dumbass is totally ignoring the fact that GOOD PITCHERS pitch more innings than BAD PITCHERS. Look at the "abuse ratings" for 2003. What pitchers will be at the top? Probably guys like Jason Schmidt, Randy Johnson, etc...

          you know... GOOD PITCHERS... because GOOD PITCHERS are able to pitch COMPLETE GAMES and LONG INNINGS and stuff.

          and never mind the fact that Prior, Wood, and Zambrano wouldn't have to pitch long innings if the Cubs bullpen that year didn't suck... (Borowski was saving games, but middle relief was very shaky)

          there are lots of things to attack Dusty Baker on...

          this is not one of them...

          this is just like the morons that bash Bush for stupid stuff... there are so many REAL ISSUES to attack Bush on... don't attack him for stupid stuff...
          To us, it is the BEAST.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sava
            this is just like the morons that bash Bush for stupid stuff... there are so many REAL ISSUES to attack Bush on... don't attack him for stupid stuff...


            I'm really looking forward to the Series. Granted, it helps that the White Sox are involved.

            Will yet another wild card team walk away with the series?

            Does either team have enough hitting to beat the good starting staffs?

            Will Houston's relief staff be the difference?

            Will Ozzie really retire if he wins the WS like he said he would earlier in the year?

            Let the fun begin.
            Keep on Civin'
            RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Ming


              hey, I always bash Bush on important stuff!!!!!!


              I'm really looking forward to the Series. Granted, it helps that the White Sox are involved.

              Will yet another wild card team walk away with the series?

              Does either team have enough hitting to beat the good starting staffs?

              Will Houston's relief staff be the difference?

              Will Ozzie really retire if he wins the WS like he said he would earlier in the year?

              Let the fun begin.
              yeah this will be awesome!

              I think the White Sox will have the edge. The extra games Houston played will no doubt effect how they use their pitching. Oswalt will not be able to start the series. And Clemens has not been as good as he was earlier in the season.

              Plus, I think the Sox have the edge in offense.

              Both teams are about even when it comes to speed. IIRC, they were both ranked the same in stolen bases in their respective leagues.

              I don't know if Ozzie will retire. I hope not. I think most of that talk during the last month before the playoffs was him just trying to take attention away from the team's play... sort of "falling on the grenade", so to speak.

              He was making some really crazy remarks around that time. But I think crazy like a fox. They ended up destroying Cleveland.

              GO WHITE SOX!!!
              To us, it is the BEAST.

              Comment


              • #37
                You can ALWAYS count on Ozzie for "great" comments. The press here just loves him... a slow sports day, just talk to Ozzie
                Keep on Civin'
                RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ming
                  You can ALWAYS count on Ozzie for "great" comments. The press here just loves him... a slow sports day, just talk to Ozzie
                  Did you hear his interview with Mike North this morning on THE SCORE?

                  "I may not be the best manager in baseball, but I am the best looking!"

                  To us, it is the BEAST.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    The thing that scares me is the Sox shaky hitting having a week between at-bats. A couple games to shake off the rust is not a luxury anyone can afford in a best-of-7.

                    That said, I predict: White Sox in 4.
                    Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
                    RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-Arms

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                    • #40
                      no that's common sense...


                      Ie, you have no facts to back it up... aka, a BAM.

                      GOOD PITCHERS are able to pitch COMPLETE GAMES and LONG INNINGS and stuff.


                      Later on in their careers. If they do this early in their career, they are crusing for injury and a break down (as you said, look at Jason Schmidt). As the years go on, they can pitch more innings, but younger pitchers are kept on pitch counts for a reason. It's so they don't blow their arms out.

                      They can pitch a lot of innings in a season, but when the manager lets the young pitcher go for 130, 140 pitches, that is when problems develop. For example, Roy Halladay led the AL in pitches thrown in 2003, but is far down on the 2003 PAP ratings.

                      there are lots of things to attack Dusty Baker on...

                      this is not one of them...


                      Of course it is. This is the BIGGEST thing to attack Baker on. He kills young arms. He rides them until they break.
                      Last edited by Imran Siddiqui; October 20, 2005, 13:47.
                      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Dusty breaks old arms too. See Rod Beck.
                        “It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.”

                        ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

                        Comment


                        • #42



                          Imran...

                          the thing that destroys this theory of yours is that:

                          1. Zambrano is healthy

                          2. Prior's injury problems have been freak injuries not related to over-use

                          3. and Wood's injury is related to his mechanics and was a problem BEFORE DUSTY BAKER EVEN GOT TO CHICAGO

                          4. and what about Matt Clement's numbers for that year? funny how the author totally ignores him... I guess you can ignore the data that doesn't support your argument huh?


                          you are wrong...


                          get over it...

                          if this theory of yours was true, the Chicago media would be hammering Baker about it... but this is not what they attack Dusty about. I listen to about 6 hours a day of sports radio. I read 4 Chicago area newspapers. And I frequent many Chicago Sports websites.

                          In fact, Steve Stone addressed this very issue during last season. He shot down the notion that Dusty abuses his pitchers.

                          You are embarassing yourself once again Imran.

                          and funny how you didn't even address the Cubs bullpen issue

                          oh man, I so enjoy pwning you...
                          To us, it is the BEAST.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            1. Zambrano is healthy

                            2. Prior's injury problems have been freak injuries not related to over-use

                            3. and Wood's injury is related to his mechanics and was a problem BEFORE DUSTY BAKER EVEN GOT TO CHICAGO


                            I wonder if you even read the article... or the snippet I posted. If you would, you'd know that he talks about Zambrano and says Zambrano may be the rare young pitcher who can take pitch counts up the wazoo.

                            Prior 'freak injury'? When 'freak injuries' build up, they may not be freak anymore.

                            And whether or not Wood had injury problems before Baker is no indication of whether or not Baker overworked him. In fact, the fact that Wood had been injured before makes Baker's acts MORE criminal! He took someone coming off injury and pitched them that much?

                            And why should he bring up Clement? Clement did pitch a lot of innings. However, he wasn't as overused by Baker, because he wasn't one of the horses Baker uses. The problem with Baker is that he overuses his young arms because he thinks they are the only ones that can do anything. Clement wasn't one of that star rotation, so didn't get as bad the treatment, but did have some of it.

                            the Chicago media would be hammering Baker about it


                            Just because the Chicago media is a bunch of idiots doesn't mean anything. Most sports talk has hardly any knowledge of the sabermetric revolution. Most of them are the old traditionalist types who wouldn't know a proper statistical analysis if it hit them on the nose.

                            In fact, Steve Stone addressed this very issue during last season. He shot down the notion that Dusty abuses his pitchers.




                            Well if Steve Stone says it!!


                            Sorry, Sava, those engaging in BAMs, like yourself, are the only ones getting pwned here. I've given you links... you've given... nothing.


                            And if you think it's just one author (someone who you call a moron, even though he probably knows more baseball in his pinky than you've known your entire life ):

                            Brendan Donnelly has managed to put together one of the most auspicious beginnings to a career in recent memory. Dusty Baker sure loves his veterans. And Brandon Inge is having the month of his life for the Tigers. All this and much more news from Anaheim, Chicago, and Detroit in your Thursday edition of Prospectus Triple Play.


                            Let's face it, many of us were worried that Dusty Baker was not the right manager for the Chicago Cubs, a team with a young and talented pitching staff and a few bright position prospects. What this club needed, it seemed, was a manager who would treat his young arms with care, and who could patiently work his rookies into the lineup. The Cubs hired Baker, an exceedingly successful manager, granted, but one who did not have a solid reputation in either of these two critical areas.

                            As feared, Baker is working his young arms like Simon Legree, waging a tight race with the Expos to have the most abused pitching staff in baseball according to PAP. (Last years winner? Baker's Giants.) Although Mark Prior have been spectacular, there is some concern surrounding erstwhile staff ace Kerry Wood. After a brilliant 130-pitch two-hit shutout on July 19, he slumped to 1-4, 7.31 in the subsequent six starts. Last night he threw seven shutout innings, but also 125 pitches. It need not be said how important Wood is to the Cubs playoff hopes.
                            Last edited by Imran Siddiqui; October 20, 2005, 16:10.
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by -Jrabbit
                              That said, I predict: White Sox in 4.
                              You're insane. The pitching and the lineups are way too evenly matched for this to go any fewer than six. (Well, the lineups aren't as close as the pitching is, but they're still very comparable.)
                              CGN | a bunch of incoherent nonsense
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                              • #45
                                sorry Imran... no BAM's... just pointing out COMMON SENSE...

                                strong pitchers can pitch lots of innings

                                that is common sense

                                this whole abused pitcher thing is nonsense... 10-15 extra pitches in a few games in one season is not the cause of Prior and Wood's injuries.

                                Post a source that says it is.

                                Oh yeah, you haven't.

                                And Steve Stone has more baseball knowledge in his left nut than you and every moron sports writer that you are getting this "abused pitcher" crap from.

                                Case closed.

                                my pwnage of you continues
                                To us, it is the BEAST.

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