US stages revolt against the British

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by DanS


We only do not do so because of convention, not because there is any real difference.

A ticket a state-owned airline sells would be a tax, while a ticket a private airline sells would not? In one case the diplomat would exempt from paying up, while in the other it would not, even though we're talking about the exact same thing? That's ridiculous Dan.

Limited congestion is a part of the service that the city is providing. They tax the use of the highways in the area in order to provide the service. Mass transit helps the city provide this service in an appropriate manner.

I would prefer other methods of providing the service than what Red Ken Livingston is using, but it's still a rather direct linkage.

Roads are roads, subways are subways, buses are buses. If I'm paying a fare for a subway ride, I'm not using the road. I'm paying money for the actual service I'm using, period.

[DanS]

You know full well the concept of externalities. I don't think we need to rehash it here.

If an economist wants to tell me the actual distinction in the difference between a usage tax and a user fee, I would like to hear what the technical difference is. But I won't stand for having a bogus distinction made by a bunch of lawyers, politicians, or philosophers (or any combination thereof).

[Colonâ„¢]

WTF do externalities have to do with this? Are you drunk?

[Colonâ„¢]

Let's assume airfare tax is charged on plane tickets, and tickets sold by state-owned airlines are a tax, do we have a tax on a tax then? Let's keep it serious, shall we?

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by DanS
You know full well the concept of externalities. I don't think we need to rehash it here.

If an economist wants to tell me the actual distinction in the difference between a usage tax and a user fee, I would like to hear what the technical difference is. But I won't stand for having a bogus distinction made by a bunch of lawyers, politicians, or philosophers (or any combination thereof).

A usage tax is a tax assessed by the government for using a public good, in a broad sense. Tolls, like this Congestion Tax, would fall under the domain of 'usage tax' - as the public good here is the road.

A user fee would be something like a goverment airline. That's not a tax, because the government is providing an actual service, not simply asking for money in exchange for not preventing your use. Some camping grounds would have user fees AND usage taxes, for example; the usage tax is for being allowed to park your trailer or set up your tent, while the user fee would be for renting a grill or some such.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say this is probably something that according to convention will be ruled in favor of the Americans.

What frustrates me the most about this is that diplomats EVERYWHERE do this. NY, Washington, etc. have huge troubles with diplomats abusing their diplomatic privilege, not paying parking fines, DWIs, etcetera ... and american diplomats are no better (but not the worst, either ... iirc a Georgian diplomat was NOT recalled after several DWI incidents, one of which ended with a serious injury ... Diplomatic privilege is something that needs to go. If you commit a crime or whatnot on foreign soil, you commit a crime. Exempt them from sales taxes, fine, and income taxes, but everything else is fair game ...

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by GePap
Its not a tax for god's sake, its a toll. There is a difference! Here in NYc we have a hard time getting all those diplomats to pay the parking charges they owe the City. I say let London screw the embassy...damn diplomats screwing the rest of the city residents

... and you don't see the connection?

[DanS]

Originally posted by Colon
Let's assume airfare tax is charged on plane tickets, and tickets sold by state-owned airlines are a tax, do we have a tax on a tax then? Let's keep it serious, shall we?

That's a ridiculous piece of sophistry. Just because you calculate a tax based on another tax has no bearing on its identification as a tax!

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove In the US foreign diplomats get away with not paying parking meter fees

Not true.

In fact, the US recently passed a bill which would reduce the foreign aid countries receive from the US by the amount they owe in unpaid parking tickets.

[Kuciwalker]

Innovative.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DanS


Roo? That's not the way it works on this side of the pond. They tax plane tickets to provide the airports. They add a 9/11 tax for extra plane security. They tax the gasoline to provide the highways and mass transit, etc. The more direct the connection between the tax and the use the better.

Really, they're trying to make a distinction where there's no difference. A government fee is a tax. Doesn't matter whether it's a use tax or a general tax.

I'm pretty sure diplos in the US pay tolls when they use toll roads.

Theoretically the cops have no enforcement powers (they can cite for the violation but not arrest), but I'm pretty sure that the British Embassy along with most of the rest of the First World tries to maintain good relations by paying whatever usage fees are involved.

I just think that British diplomats in the US should simply retaliate by not paying any parking fines, speeding tickets, tolls etc. until the US Embassy in London stops being stupid and creating friction over a laughable amount of money.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DanS


That's a ridiculous piece of sophistry. Just because you calculate a tax based on another tax has no bearing on its identification as a tax!

No, what's a ridiculous piece of sophistry is your claim that any fee levied by a government agency is a tax and thus shouldn't be paid by diplomats.

Or do you think that a diplomat in Canada who gets sick should be allowed to get away without paying his medical bill because the hospital he was treated at is under the control of the provincial government?

[KrazyHorse]

The fact is that diplomats are exempt from criminal or civil proceedings in the host country unless their home country waives their immunity. That being said, it's juvenile for the US to open up this can of worms in ****ing London.

This isn't Tehran, for God's sake. Unless there's been some recent bad behaviour by British diplos in the US that I'm unaware of this is just plain stupid.

[DanS]

I just think that British diplomats in the US should simply retaliate by not paying any parking fines, speeding tickets, tolls etc. until the US Embassy in London stops being stupid and creating friction over a laughable amount of money.

You would think that effective, but you'd probably be sorely disappointed at the results. Why would the federal government give a damn whether diplomats don't pay fines and speeding tickets levied by city governments?

[KrazyHorse]

DC receives funding from the federal government for municipal services.

Any money DC doesn't collect is going to come from the federal pocket.

[Kuciwalker]

Does DC have toll roads? And DC has local taxes as well.