New Orleans and Its Police Officers

[Seeker]

"nobody is inthe shoes of that cop to know how they would react. Most of the time al the cop wants to do is make it through another night alive"

Why do you give them this 'special pass'? Can you imagine that in an assault case for any other profession? Well judge, it's true that John Doe the Deliveryman was seen and taped repeatedly stomping this guys head into the curb, but you've just got to 'put yourself in his place'...

WTF is it different for a cop? Shouldn't they actually be held to a HIGHER standard of behaviour, not a lower? But no....if it's a representative of so-called 'legitimate authority' then it's all hemming and hawing, and "I-can-understand-where-they-coming-froming" and etc, and BS...jesus it shouldn't make any difference!

An ******* is an ******* regardless of any funny hat, badge, uniform, or that ultimate symbol that makes Americans whine and present their necks like beta males in the wolfpack, a gun.

The same thing goes for soldiers btw. Wearing a uniform should make them accountable to a higher standard, not a lower. If a soldier went around beating on people, vandalizing, being disrespectful to women, then the following should NOT happen: "Oh how can you ever know, he's been shot at, he puts his life on the line for your freedom, he just needs to let off steam more than you do" BS BS BS.

Real soldiers and Peace Officers know that they are accountable to a higher, even the highest standard, and they must get pissed off by this bootlicking, sychophantic reflexive "circle-the-wagons" reaction whenever a false member of those elite brotherhoods has been exposed as an *******.

You like cops? Fine. Great. But if you respect what they stand for (justice) and not just their "power" and "authority", you'll hold them to a higher standard of behaviour than civilians, not a lower standard.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by Mr.Fun
Let's start with repeatedly bashing another guy's head into a brick/concrete wall.

If the subject is still actively resisting (and thus still a threat to the officer), and doing so would stop the resistance, then it might just very well be completely justified (I, however, try to use a wall only once in a vertical stun.). You still need to be more defininative.

[Seeker]

It's late, I'm all liqoured up after Turkey Day...it's time for some major league ranting.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by Seeker
Why do you give them this 'special pass'? Can you imagine that in an assault case for any other profession? Well judge, it's true that John Doe the Deliveryman was seen and taped repeatedly stomping this guys head into the curb, but you've just got to 'put yourself in his place'...

Well Seeker, the main difference is that it is the responsability of the police to arrest people who are breaking the law, irregardless of said suspects resistance level. The more they resist, the more force that can and will be brought to bear in order to apprehend the suspect.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Donegeal

Originally posted by Mr.Fun
Let's start with repeatedly bashing another guy's head into a brick/concrete wall.

If the subject is still actively resisting (and thus still a threat to the officer), and doing so would stop the resistance, then it might just very well be completely justified (I, however, try to use a wall only once in a vertical stun.). You still need to be more defininative.

You're way too kind towards machosistic, bloody (racist?) thugs.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Donegeal


Well Seeker, the main difference is that it is the responsability of the police to arrest people who are breaking the law, irregardless of said suspects resistance level. The more they resist, the more force that can and will be brought to bear in order to apprehend the suspect.

How much resistance was this SIXTY-FOUR year old man giving?

[Seeker]

That principle has been found not to apply in certain situations, such as high speed chases (at least here in canada), under the idea that the public good of the arrest can be outweighed by other factors.

I'm sure that well-trained police officers can be creative in the means they use to subdue a suspect with all the technology, equipment, and training available to them. I really strongly suspect that pounding someones skull as hard as you can against pavement is not one of those creative means. Where are the tasers? knockout gas? Or even just all piling on him and restraining him with chains and shackles?

There's always going to be a way that doesn't involve obviously gratuitous force against an unarmed man on the ground by two armed men standing over/on him.

Maybe I'm just a drunken fool but I think many people would agree that unnecessary force is like art, I don't know what is, but I sure as hell know what I hate.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by MrFun


How much resistance was this SIXTY-FOUR year old man giving?

I don't know. I have already stated that I have not seen the video.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by Seeker
That principle has been found not to apply in certain situations, such as high speed chases (at least here in canada), under the idea that the public good of the arrest can be outweighed by other factors.

Its the same here in the USA, and there are general guidelines that govern when this is to happen (departmental policy). However, the frequency with which this occurs (and how lenient the policy) can greatly affect the enforcement of traffic regulations (why stop when the cops will leave you alone if you run?).

I'm sure that well-trained police officers can be creative in the means they use to subdue a suspect with all the technology, equipment, and training available to them. I really strongly suspect that pounding someones skull as hard as you can against pavement is not one of those creative means. Where are the tasers? knockout gas? Or even just all piling on him and restraining him with chains and shackles?

I can assure you that pounding a suspects head on the pavement/wall is not a trained technique. And personally, I'm not sure I could creatively write such a method as a dynamic application of any technique I have been trained on in a report (possible as an elbow strike, but thats pushing it). Piling on is my favorite as it involves less bludgeoning) but, as Grandpa pointed out, the extra officers are generally not available (or at least 10+ minutes away). I do not know of any department that authorizes any type of gas to be carried by any officer (with the exception of SWAT/ERT) so knockout gas wasn't/can't be an option (many do carry pepper spray, but suspects can easily fight through the pain). TASER would have been my choice, but we don't know if they are even authorized by the NOPD (or readily available as police supplies were just as diminished as everyone elses).

[Seeker]

Well, my point really wasn't so much about the specifics of the case as it was about the attitude in general towards violence by "authority" figures and the exposure of that violence in the media, particularly the white attitude vs others.

The justificatory, I'm-identifying-what-"team"-I'm-on attitude.

[DRoseDARs]

This has gotten a little stranger:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051011/ap_on_re_us/new_orleans_taped_beating

Subject of Taped Beating Says He Was Sober

By RACHEL LA CORTE, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 43 minutes ago

NEW ORLEANS - A retired elementary teacher who was repeatedly punched in the head by police in an incident caught on videotape said Monday he was not drunk, put up no resistance and was baffled by what happened.

Robert Davis said he had returned to New Orleans to check on property his family owns in the storm-ravaged city, and was out looking to buy cigarettes when he was beaten and arrested Saturday night in the French Quarter.

Police have alleged that the 64-year-old Davis was publicly intoxicated, a charge he strongly denied as he stood on the street corner where the incident played out Saturday.

"I haven't had a drink in 25 years," Davis said. He had stitches beneath his left eye, a bandage on his left hand and complained of soreness in his back and aches in his left shoulder.

A federal civil rights investigation was begun in the case. Davis is black; the three city police officers seen on the tape are white.

But Davis, his attorney and police spokesman Marlon Defillo all said they do not believe race was an issue.

"He does not see it as a racial thing," said Davis' lawyer, Joseph Bruno.

Two city officers accused in the beating, and a third officer accused of grabbing and shoving an Associated Press Television News producer who helped document the confrontation, pleaded not guilty Monday to battery charges.

Trial was set at a hearing Monday for Jan. 11. Afterward, officers Lance Schilling, Robert Evangelist and S.M. Smith were released on bond. They left without commenting.

Police Superintendent Warren Riley said any misconduct would be dealt with swiftly. He noted the video showed "a portion of that incident."

"The actions that were observed on this video are certainly unacceptable by this department," Riley said.

Two other officials in the video appeared to be federal officers, according to police. Numerous agencies have sent officers to help with patrols in the aftermath of Katrina.

Stephen Kodak, an
FBI spokesman in Washington, said none of its agents had been disciplined. He said the FBI was taking part in the Justice Department's civil rights probe.

Davis said he had been walking in the French Quarter and approached a mounted police officer to ask about the curfew in the city when another officer interrupted.

"This other guy interfered and I said he shouldn't," Davis said. "I started to cross the street and — bam — I got it. ... All I know is this guy attacked me and said, `I will kick your ass,' and they proceeded to do it."

He said he did not know why the punches were thrown.

The confrontation came as the New Orleans Police Department — long plagued by allegations of brutality and corruption — struggles with the aftermath of Katrina.

The APTN tape shows an officer hitting Davis at least four times in the head outside a bar. Davis twisted and flailed as he was dragged to the ground by several officers. Davis's lawyer said his client did not resist.

"I don't think that when a person is getting beat up there's a whole lot of thought. It's survival. You don't have a whole lot of time to think when you're being pummeled," Bruno said.

Davis was kneed and pushed to the sidewalk with blood streaming down his arm and into the gutter. The officers accused of striking Davis were identified as Schilling and Evangelist.

Mayor Ray Nagin said, "I don't know what the gentleman did, but whatever he did, he didn't deserve what I saw on tape."

During the arrest, another officer, identified as Smith, ordered APTN producer Rich Matthews and a cameraman to stop recording. When Matthews held up his credentials, the officer grabbed the producer, leaned him backward over a car, jabbed him in the stomach and unleashed a profanity-laced tirade.

Police said Davis was booked on public intoxication, resisting arrest, battery on a police officer and public intimidation.

The head of the New Orleans police union said the officers told him they had acted appropriately.

"They feel they were justified in their actions and they were using the amount of force necessary to overcome the situation," Lt. David Benelli told WDSU in New Orleans.

___

APTN and Associated Press Writer Ross Sneyd contributed to this story.[/quote]

[Pekka]

I'd like to see the field manual that has 'punch in the face' as one of the methods of working around a person who resists an arrest.

"YOU DON*T NOW WHAT IT'S LIK EOUT THERE, THEY'RE ANIMALS!?"

Yeah but I bet they don't have 'punch in the face' there. They have tools, they have batons, they have every way to handle it. Punching in the face and bouncing the man's head off the concrete is hardly the only way. Unless of course you just want to beat the crap out of him.

What do you do, when there's 3 of you, and one old man, drunk or not? You don't punch them, you take the man to the ground, you slap the cuffs(?) on him, and if he still is actively squirming, you sit on the dude until he wears it off.

THat's it. SC field manual, page 9!

If you have to puch them, that means you're in a street fight, and definitely not effectively taking the person down, or arresting them. Are you outnumbered... no? You have the numbers? Ok what's the problem then?

And everyone downplaying this, yeah, the only dude who was arguing with the King thing in American History X was the nazi

[Sikander]

I saw the video a couple of times on the news tonight and I have serious doubts about the legality / necessity of the police actions. Given that many police in the U.S. are poorly trained in physical combat and all too often use completely inappropriate techniques when subduing people it isn't all that surprising, but what I saw shows a complete lack of discipline even excusing the stupidity of using a beating to subdue someone when 5% of that energy would have subdued someone resisting arrest by simply breaking him down with grappling and perhaps one or two blows if he was somehow capable of an unusual capability in hand to hand combat. The fact that he's 64 years old and a retired schoolteacher makes the chances that he's also a master kung fu expert or former pit fighter capable of giving 3 police officers a run for their money unlikely in the extreme. Throw these scum off of the force and convict them of felony assault.

[MrFun]

Thanks for the update, Drose.

[Chemical Ollie]

Swedish newspapers reported that a group of NO policemen took active part in the post-Katrina looting. They occupied a hotel where they spent their time boozing up. They made raids outside to get more drinks and stole a generator from a hospital to cool their beer.