PC Victim William Bennett

[chequita guevara]

This guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Hirschfeld

Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld (who was Jewish, gay and a supporter of the Social Democrats)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_and_sexual_orientation

The Social Democrats had largely ceased to be Marxists by the 1920s, so your attempt to discredit the origins of the term racism by associating it with the likes of me has failed.

[Berzerker]

Rex

Actually, I do not disagree with you here. My point was that if poverty were the sole reason for crime, then it should have been enormous during the depression because of that poverty- and it was not. The spike began long before the depression, as you note, so we are in agreement.

Ah, I missed your point. I dont know if the Depression slowed or accelerated the declining homicide rate. Poverty IMO is more of a factor when it is institutionalised in large cities over 2-3 generations and the Depression hit more rural folk all of a sudden. Probably a spike in petty thefts and bank robberies, but not necessarily homicides. I suspect the Depression slowed the falling rate just based on the notion of the added stress.

if everything in the world was equally divided amongst all people that within 25 years the top 5% would once again control 80 to 90% of the world. It's the nature of man and anyone who can't accept that is wingnut. All politics is the means of controlling the masses, always has been, always will be.

I'd say about 3-4 generations, but you're right. Thats why communism must be imposed, people left to their own devices (and freedom) will produce and save wealth at different rates. Egalitarians are like democrats, equality and majority rule when my freedom is being sacrificed to the "common good", but when its the freedom they cherish being sacrificed, they sing a different tune about the sanctity of individual rights.

Guevera was a serial rapist? Yikes...

[chequita guevara]

Poverty rates increased before the 1929 crash. The 1920s, like the period of the last decade, saw an increasing gap between the rich and the poor.

The best evidence as to what caused the crime explosion in the 1980s, however, was the drug war and the availablity of crack cocaine. As that ceased to be a drug of choice in the 1990s, crime levels dropped. The evidence for this, however, is not conclusive, and it is probably only the most important factor of many factors.

It should be noted that crime rose again after the 2001 recession after falling during the years of the "Clinton" expansion. Job availability certainly plays a role in crime, but not as great as drugs/liquor does/did.

Guevera was a serial rapist? Yikes...

You are accepting a mere assertion?

[Epublius Rex]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Poverty rates increased before the 1929 crash. The 1920s, like the period of the last decade, saw an increasing gap between the rich and the poor.

Umm the 1920's were a period of high inflation and falling wage rates due to......

Immigration. But most of the country (just like now) were okay and unaffected by it. I know because my family was here and functioning. But I also know because almost anyone who takes up Poly Sci studies that period intensely. Further, the rural areas affected would have been affected whether or not the Depression occurred- it was the end of an era and some people just didn't get it. The 40 acre farm ceased to be a reality with the introduction of mechanized farming implements- and those people simply hung on anyway. It was the small farms that died, not the large ones. My grandfather prospered mightily during that time period and not just from patents but also his own farms. The depression hit the areas hardest that had seen the largest numbers of immigrants from 1900 to 1926. The crime was not in the rural areas, but in the cities and had, as Zerk pointed out, nothing to do with poverty but rather the bootleggers and their trade with a smattering of bank robbers tossed into the mix later on. Better try again. Poverty has never been shown to cause crime. If it were a factor, then crime should not have peaked in 1934, but rather should have kept rising until 1938-39 when war production began. and it would not have spiked again in large cities following the war- when ever one had jobs. It spiked then because of lack of parents around to supervise all of those pre-war and war babies. It dropped off in the fifties- when the economy slowed down and women were laid off.

The best evidence as to what caused the crime explosion in the 1980s, however, was the drug war and the availablity of crack cocaine. As that ceased to be a drug of choice in the 1990s, crime levels dropped. The evidence for this, however, is not conclusive, and it is probably only the most important factor of many factors.

Being alive then and an adult, I Know you are wrong, the war on drugs began because of the crime explosion. Crack didn't come on the scene until the late 80's and caught on because of AIDS and the junky fear of death by injection, so to speak. Go rent "Blow". Then explain meth. Also, explain the fact that there are simply more people in jail now then ever before- the real reason for the drop in crime.

It should be noted that crime rose again after the 2001 recession after falling during the years of the "Clinton" expansion. Job availability certainly plays a role in crime, but not as great as drugs/liquor does/did.

broad statement, what crime and in what communities? it has not subsided in LA, NO, Detroit, etc.

Guevera was a serial rapist? Yikes...

You are accepting a mere assertion?

Che was Castro's henchman. He was responsible for the murder of at least 2,000 cubans- directly responsible. He in fact pointed the pistola to their heads. Rape is a long acknowledged method of torture in Latin America. If that was not enough, Che went off to Africa to do the same thing there- until blundering so mightily that even they kicked him out. He returned to latin america to lead another "crusade" but again failed miserably, this time having his own life taken from him after being captured.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2107100/

"The cult of Ernesto Che Guevara is an episode in the moral callousness of our time."

[Epublius Rex]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Rex

Ah, I missed your point. I dont know if the Depression slowed or accelerated the declining homicide rate. Poverty IMO is more of a factor when it is institutionalised in large cities over 2-3 generations and the Depression hit more rural folk all of a sudden. Probably a spike in petty thefts and bank robberies, but not necessarily homicides. I suspect the Depression slowed the falling rate just based on the notion of the added stress.

Many things happened to clamp down on the crime- most all of which was related to booze. First was the reorganization of the FBI as well as the ability to cross borders to catch criminals- who could before then simply avoid prosecution by moving to another state. So, federalization was a huge factor- as was the IRS. Many of them were jailed on income tax evasion, not for booze. Also, after FDR closed the banks, they were reopened as Federal protectorates, more or less and that also made it possible to chase the bank robbers across state lines as well- but, it also made it possible to track money.

I'd say about 3-4 generations, but you're right. Thats why communism must be imposed, people left to their own devices (and freedom) will produce and save wealth at different rates. Egalitarians are like democrats, equality and majority rule when my freedom is being sacrificed to the "common good", but when its the freedom they cherish being sacrificed, they sing a different tune about the sanctity of individual rights.

More or less, but I would bet on 2 to 3, not 3 to 4. It is amazing how foolish the average person is with money........
THe true test of a family is not whether they can hang on to real wealth for a generation or three, but whether they can hang on to for 5 or 6 or more. That is the truly gifted.

Guevera was a serial rapist? Yikes...

Che was Castro's henchman. He was responsible for the murder of at least 2,000 cubans- directly responsible. He in fact pointed the pistola to their heads. Rape is a long acknowledged method of torture in Latin America. If that was not enough, Che went off to Africa to do the same thing there- until blundering so mightily that even they kicked him out. He returned to latin america to lead another "crusade" but again failed miserably, this time having his own life taken from him after being captured.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2107100/

"The cult of Ernesto Che Guevara is an episode in the moral callousness of our time."

[Berzerker]

the war on drugs began because of the crime explosion

it began because Nixon wanted to go after the hippies who were making his war less popular. Wouldn't surprise me if he actually believed pot was turning them into pacifists, that was the propaganda going around in the 50s as pot became a communist conspiracy to weaken our resolve. Drug related crime was pretty rare until after the drug war started. But as Nixon cracked down on pot, smugglers switched to more easily hidden drugs like cocaine and later heroin and profits exploded.

We really didn't have much of a drug war until the late 60s and 70s. The Feds screeched alot, went after doctors for maybe 3 years for opposing the pot ban, and did little else but spew propaganda. But that was all they needed to prevent hemp from competing with politically favored industries.

You are accepting a mere assertion?

With a question?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Wow- Agathon draws a complete blank on inquiries into institutionalized police racism.

We had a rather revealing investigation into the Metropolitan POlice over here a few years back, and a fascinating under cover documentary at a police training centre:

I believe that there is institutionalized police racism. I also believe that certain minorities are more "at risk" of becoming involved in crime. I make a point of asking every cop I meet socially about this. Most of them admit privately that there is some racism in the police force, but they will also tell you that certain minorities are overrepresented among the perps.

I didn't have to ask a cop to know this was true. Unlike some of you who have led more sheltered lives, I had a lot of acquaintances who ended up on the wrong side of the law.

It was also noticeable that when the City of London and Docklands were bombed by Irish terrorists, the number of motorists of Asian or Afro-Caribbean appearance or descent who were stopped by the police's 'ring of steel' rose- now forgive me for pointing this out, by Irish Republican terrorists were not renowned for utilising black or ethnic minority recruits.

There is of course the matter of jury composition too- and the way trial by media 'convicted' people such as the Broadwater Three.

All of this is true. However, it isn't inconsistent with the fact that certain minorities are disproportionately likely to commit more crimes. It's not because they are natural criminals or anything like that - it is the same reason that poor white trash are overrepresented in violent crime statistics compared to the white population as a whole. And of course men are responsible for the vast majority of crimes.

Let's not let our politics and disgust at the police get in the way of the facts.

[Agathon]

Even Human rights watch allows that poverty and upbringing have a lot to do with the increased incarceration rate of black men in the United States.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp

Ever heard of Harold Shipman? 250 murders went undetected for decades. And that's just from one man.

He got caught in the end, but it doesn't half get you thinking about these things. And thinking about these things is good, isn't it? Rather than just swallowing stats blindly and unquestioningly.

You post an anecdote to convince me to not swallow stats blindly?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Epublius Rex
Being alive then and an adult, I Know you are wrong, the war on drugs began because of the crime explosion.

Oh, look, you're wrong. You another of your unsupported assertions pizzownd!

http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse.cfm?sequencenameCHAR=item2&methodnameCHAR=resource_getitembrowse&interfacenameCHAR=browse.cfm&ISSUEID_CHAR=F2587859-2B35-221B-6C1D670E3F3005D5&ARTICLEID_CHAR=F26F1C9C-2B35-221B-6D3D0FB93AAFE0F0&sc=I100322

broad statement, what crime and in what communities? it has not subsided in LA, NO, Detroit, etc.

Actually, it did. Across the country, across the board, violent crime dropped, regardless as to whether you had increased policing and imprisonment or not. This was one of the hoary myths that was rather successfully refuted, along with concealed carry laws being responsible.

Che was Castro's henchman. He was responsible for the murder of at least 2,000 cubans- directly responsible.

Proof that he was the executioner? Even if he was, I don't feel terribly sorry when murdering torturing scum like Batista's Guardia Nacional get killed.

Rape is a long acknowledged method of torture in Latin America.

So you admit it's a mere assertion on your part.

If that was not enough, Che went off to Africa to do the same thing there- until blundering so mightily that even they kicked him out.

He was tossed out of Algeria (IIRC), but they had already had a revolution. He wasn't leading a struggle there. In the Congo, he left because he felt that Kabila's group weren't real revolutionaries, just a bunch of thugs.

He returned to latin america to lead another "crusade" but again failed miserably, this time having his own life taken from him after being captured.

Yes, the terrible, terrible man, helping the Bolivian people fight against the military coup that had overthrown their democracy a year earlier.

From wiki:

Once, on a trip to Russia, Guevara was dining with high-ranking officials from the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, when the group's food was served to them on expensive china. To the Russians, Guevara caustically remarked, "Is this how the proletariat lives in Russia?"

Obviously someone who didn't live and die according to his ideals.

BTW, I was an adult in the 80s too, so don't try and pull that "I'm older than you" **** on me.

[Epublius Rex]

Originally posted by Berzerker


it began because Nixon wanted to go after the hippies who were making his war less popular. Wouldn't surprise me if he actually believed pot was turning them into pacifists, that was the propaganda going around in the 50s as pot became a communist conspiracy to weaken our resolve. Drug related crime was pretty rare until after the drug war started. But as Nixon cracked down on pot, smugglers switched to more easily hidden drugs like cocaine and later heroin and profits exploded.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/cron/

"During the Nixon era, for the only time in the history of the war on drugs, the majority of funding goes towards treatment, rather than law enforcement."

go back far enough and you will see that it was the doctors themselves who lobbied congress for control of class A narcotics- i.e. prescription power. IIRC, that was in the 20's or so. They wanted to make money from drugs by controlling their distribution. Doctors are the original "drug dealers". Pot was made illegal in the 40's or 50's- I can't remember which, though Im sure I could google it. Coke was a popular drug in the late 60's and so was heroin. back then, pot was incredibly easy to get- right into the late 70's, in fact. Pot was decriminalized in many states in the late 70's. It was a parking ticket to be caught with an ounce or less. The most expensive pot, the imported stuff from south America was only 20.00 an ounce. What changed during the 70's was that lack of drugs coming from Vietnam via vets and such. Once the US pulled out of there, hash, thai sticks, heroin and the like became very scarce. That was the Golden Triangle trade.

The crime began to rise around the distribution of Heroin and coke. That occurred in the late 70's. Until then, there was no real push on it from the Feds as there was under Reagan in the 80's. The pot market was relatively benign and no one associated it with crime during the 70's. Coke was a different matter since it involved, early on, the drug cartels from SA. That also changed when the Cubans (Muriel boat lift) came on the scene in the late 70's. Coke had become the drug of choice for the monied elite in America. Most of it came through Florida and not across the Mexican border back then. The Cubans were the ones who brought a Mafia style gang look to it and were also the ones who started in with the heavy violence. Castro had cleaned out his prisons with that boat lift and America suffered a corresponding crime wave because of it. Smart on Castro's part if you ask me.

I and associated friends of mine were all heavily involved in the coke trade during those years. It was "hip", if you will. Coke was everywhere. Everyone did it. It was a sign you had money, were "elite", etc. It drifted down to the ghettos after that. And, as I said before, with the discovery of AIDS, it changed yet again. Once coke moved from the well off to the masses, it became big enough money for the gangs to move in and thats when the real crime kicked in. But that didn't happen till the early 80's- by that time, monied people were moving away from it. Far too many people ended up in treatment centers after losing their "lives" for it to remain on the "cool" side of things. By the late 80's, it was out of fashion. I myself got out of it after the Cubans moved into the trade where I am in 1986. My main supplier was "popped" in 1983 and then things began to change. kilos were "cut" where before they were pure. and after that It was not as good anymore anyway. It was "cut" far too much with chemicals that tasted funny. Back in 1980, you could (if buying enough) get pure uncut "stuff"- which was then cut with pro-cain or another pharmaceutical grade cut. By 84, it was cut with speed and other junk and obtained a lighter fluid like taste. Thats when "freebasing" became widely popular- as a means of getting the purity back. Freebasing was crack, on a do it yourself level. Richard Prior set himself on fire cooking his coke, remember? As the volume of usage grew, so did the crime.

Anyhow, I can't really say what has happened since then as I stay away from it now. I did know someone who was "popped" by the Feds for Coke in the very early 70's- around 72, and did 22 months in Fed prison for it. He was a major distributor, an accountant, who got caught up in the whole thing out West. I knew still more people who had the front doors of their parent's posh homes kicked down by gun wielding thugs who stole their heroin and or coke poundage. I know others who never got caught and built real estate empires from the money. It was a weird time. But almost everyone I knew got out of it when the gangs came into the picture- the risk for violence was simply too great and no one wanted to die. As I said, most of these people had access to money anyway and it was sort of a game that got out of hand.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/cron/

"During the Nixon era, for the only time in the history of the war on drugs, the majority of funding goes towards treatment, rather than law enforcement."

[GePap]

You guys arguing with this troll AGAIN!? Why?

[Epublius Rex]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by Epublius Rex
Being alive then and an adult, I Know you are wrong, the war on drugs began because of the crime explosion.

BTW, I was an adult in the 80s too, so don't try and pull that "I'm older than you" **** on me.

Actually, you're wrong, yet again. The difference between you me is you believe in the silly propaganda machine of the communist party- I don't.

try reading the slate article above. Che was just another commie thug- and a not too bright one at that.

As per the drug war- yet again, you are wrong-

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/cron/

"During the Nixon era, for the only time in the history of the war on drugs, the majority of funding goes towards treatment, rather than law enforcement."

The war didn't start in earnest until the crime wave associated with it.

You may have been alive, but like most people, you were not an actor, but merely a reactor. Only the truly benign worship someone like "che".

[Epublius Rex]

Originally posted by GePap
You guys arguing with this troll AGAIN!? Why?

Zerk and I are discussing history. The commie, like you, seeks to argue- not fact based discussion, mind you, but emotional, faith based assertions in argumentative form.

What is it with you commies that you always resort to name calling and faith based assertions? You never win.

[Epublius Rex]

Originally posted by GePap
You guys arguing with this troll AGAIN!? Why?

you can't even get that right:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

"As a pejorative, the term, "troll", is often used to slander opponents in heated debates, in a way similar to the use of the term "noob" in online games. Both the person who identify himself as a "troll", and the one who vehemently denies it, will use the term, demonstrating to neutral third parties that both participants are, in fact, trolls. Accordingly, the view has arisen in some circles that the plural, "trolls", is a valid term, and that, as it takes two to troll, it is not valid to refer to anyone in the singular, i.e. "troll". Others, however, feel that "it only takes a boat to troll, and the fish has a choice as to whether to bite or not". In other words, they claim that one person can do it alone. Then again, it must be noted that for some fish, biting is a conditioned reflex."

Then again, maybe not:

"The term, "troll", is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as "trolling", while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument ad hominem. Likewise, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives that may be incorrect, and therefore is an example of a fundamental attribution error. "

"argument ad hominem."- that best describes you and your buddies here, Gepap.