PC Victim William Bennett

[Wiglaf]

They are immeasurably poorer than the white population. Extrapolate from there...

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Agathon
I don't like Bennett, but he is being treated unfairly here. If you look at the context of what he said, he was actually arguing against the discriminatory treatment of people based on their being in groups that have a higher crime rate. According to CNN he was disagreeing with a caller who said that Social Security would be solvent if not for abortions. It's simply true that blacks are statistically more likely to commit crime. It's also true that they are statistically more likely to be poor. Only a lunatic would suggest that abortion would be the solution to the latter problem, and likewise with the former. Bennett explicitly pointed out that it would be monstrous to argue that aborting black babies would be permissible because it lowered the crime rate. That's what he said.

He was making the point that hypotheticals like that can lead you into an ethical quagmire. Bennett's point is that simple consequentialist reasoning like that displayed by the caller is not a good way to argue.

You know... he's right. That is exactly what can happen.

Shame on the people who are using a sound bite and ignoring the context.

Looks around for more signs of the apocalyse!

[MrFun]

Re: PC Victim William Bennett

Originally posted by Berzerker
Those who know me also know I think Bennett is scum, but this is ridiculous. He is being grilled because he pointed out a simple fact - which also happens to be an unpleasant truth, i.e., PC territory.

Bennett cited a conclusion from a book, "Freakonomics",
that Roe v Wade is a major cause for dropping crime rates, to suggest aborting black babies would also lower the crime rate, so what? Its still an immoral argument for abortion. He's right, albeit he is countering a strawman. No one suggested we abort babies to lower crime rates. But the pro-life crowd has perceived the data from Freakonomics as if the pro-choice crowd would justify abortion based on crime rates. He could have said aborting babies in really poor families would also lower crime rates and it would have been true, but more immune to PC.

Hypocritically Bennett has no problem punishing large groups of innocent people based on what others have done. He was "Drug Czar" (aint it wonderful how we use autocratic titles?) and saw to it millions suffered for the crimes of others. His beloved drug war is based on guilt by association...

Why not just call for the extermination of black people, and be done with it? Oh wait -- that would be politically incorrect.

This guy is not a victim of political correctness -- he's a victim of his own racist bigotry that denies him enlightenment and integrity.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Smiley
From one of those "here is something to think about" quotes:

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail."

To update it, when William Bennet has a hammer, even his own d!ck looks like a nail.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


Oh for Christ's sake, Imran. You studied law. You should be able to punch holes in that assertion big enough to drive trucks through.

We just don't know. We don't know how many crimes are committed. We don't know how many of those that are committed are actually noticed. We don't know what proportion of noticed crimes are reported, and by whom. We don't what proportion of reported crimes are investigated and/or the reasons why they might not.

Then we don't know whether there are imbalances in the levels of effort expended by the investigators dependant on the victim's circumstances. The same goes for the Prosecutors and/or their willingness to proecute. And/or their willingness to look for out-of-court remedies.

We don't know much about the imbalances in legal advice available to the accused dependant on their circumstances, and how that translates into end results at trial. We don't know much about what skewing factors are caused by the whims and wiles of the judge and jury, for that matter.

So, to be blunt, if you think you can look at conviction stats (and "perceived victimhood" stats either, because they're wide open to skewing in different ways) and think you've found proof that blacks actually commit more crimes, then publish it far and wide. No other bugger's managed it.

The majority of murder cases are solved in the U.S., and it's hard to imagine a lot of murders go undetected. Blacks (as of several years ago at least) were about 4 times as likely to commit them compared to their proportion of the population. Even making all the favorable assumptions that you can it's hard to see where there is room to blow this.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


Oh for Christ's sake, Imran. You studied law. You should be able to punch holes in that assertion big enough to drive trucks through.

We just don't know. We don't know how many crimes are committed. We don't know how many of those that are committed are actually noticed. We don't know what proportion of noticed crimes are reported, and by whom. We don't what proportion of reported crimes are investigated and/or the reasons why they might not.

Then we don't know whether there are imbalances in the levels of effort expended by the investigators dependant on the victim's circumstances. The same goes for the Prosecutors and/or their willingness to proecute. And/or their willingness to look for out-of-court remedies.

We don't know much about the imbalances in legal advice available to the accused dependant on their circumstances, and how that translates into end results at trial. We don't know much about what skewing factors are caused by the whims and wiles of the judge and jury, for that matter.

So, to be blunt, if you think you can look at conviction stats (and "perceived victimhood" stats either, because they're wide open to skewing in different ways) and think you've found proof that blacks actually commit more crimes, then publish it far and wide. No other bugger's managed it.

Howay Man!

This is conspiracy-theory crap. Even if most of it were true, it's not enough to explain the wide divergence in statistics.

I don't know about the UK, but it is well-known in both the US and in NZ that blacks and Maoris respectively are overrepresented in crime statistics. I have made a point during my life of asking every cop I meet socially about this. I get the same answer every time - it's true.

I'm way to the left of you, but I see no reason to deny this obvious fact.

Your opinion is laughable.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

It would be immeasurably racist if Bennet implied some form of genetic link to African Americans and crime rate. I see no evidence that was the case.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
It would be immeasurably racist if Bennet implied some form of genetic link to African Americans and crime rate. I see no evidence that was the case.

You don't need to necessarily point to some supposed genetic link with race in order to be racist.

Otherwise, a person could be as hateful and deragatory towards blacks as they want to be, but as long as they don't point out some mythical genetic link, then those people are not racist?

puleez

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Speaking towards the definition of racism it most certainly is rooted in the myth that genetic differences are the root cause for apparant superior and inferior group traits.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Speaking towards the definition of racism it most certainly is rooted in the myth that genetic differences are the root cause for apparant superior and inferior group traits.

Let's not be too overly technical and stringent.


So someone can talk about ******s this, and ******s that, and as long as they are not referring to any "genetics" that person cannot be called a racist?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Agathon




Howay Man!

This is conspiracy-theory crap. Even if most of it were true, it's not enough to explain the wide divergence in statistics.

I don't know about the UK, but it is well-known in both the US and in NZ that blacks and Maoris respectively are overrepresented in crime statistics. I have made a point during my life of asking every cop I meet socially about this. I get the same answer every time - it's true.

I'm way to the left of you, but I see no reason to deny this obvious fact.

Your opinion is laughable.

Go on then. Prove it's a fact. Then laugh.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Sikander

The majority of murder cases are solved in the U.S., and it's hard to imagine a lot of murders go undetected.

Ever heard of Harold Shipman? 250 murders went undetected for decades. And that's just from one man.

He got caught in the end, but it doesn't half get you thinking about these things. And thinking about these things is good, isn't it? Rather than just swallowing stats blindly and unquestioningly.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MrFun


Let's not be too overly technical and stringent.


So someone can talk about ******s this, and ******s that, and as long as they are not referring to any "genetics" that person cannot be called a racist?

Intolerant and a bigot but technically speaking a racist refers to groups as inferior/superior due to some genetic factor.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Agathon


I don't know about the UK, but it is well-known in both the US and in NZ that blacks and Maoris respectively are overrepresented in crime statistics. I have made a point during my life of asking every cop I meet socially about this. I get the same answer every time - it's true.

Wow- Agathon draws a complete blank on inquiries into institutionalized police racism.


We had a rather revealing investigation into the Metropolitan POlice over here a few years back, and a fascinating under cover documentary at a police training centre:

He told BBC News Online: "Working undercover using the latest hi-tech covert filming equipment meant I could expose any of my fellow officers who held racist views or behaved in a racist manner.

"The extremity of some of the racism I encountered from these recruits beggared belief."

"Racist abuse like "Paki" and "******" were commonplace for these PCs.

"The idea that white and Asian members of the public should be treated differently because of their colour was not only acceptable for some, but preferable."

One officer taped by Daly allegedly wore a Ku Klux Klan mask.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3214693.stm

It was also noticeable that when the City of London and Docklands were bombed by Irish terrorists, the number of motorists of Asian or Afro-Caribbean appearance or descent who were stopped by the police's 'ring of steel' rose- now forgive me for pointing this out, by Irish Republican terrorists were not renowned for utilising black or ethnic minority recruits.


There is of course the matter of jury composition too- and the way trial by media 'convicted' people such as the Broadwater Three.

[Berzerker]

I don't like Bennett, but he is being treated unfairly here. If you look at the context of what he said, he was actually arguing against the discriminatory treatment of people based on their being in groups that have a higher crime rate.

He was drug "Czar" and routinely discriminated, no, punished millions for "belonging" to a group known as drug users. If he is so outraged at using guilt by association to hurt others, its a recent conversion. But to Aggie, my left wing hero for the month.

As for blacks and crime rates, it is interesting how the peak homicide rate during alcohol prohibition closely matches the homicide rate at the peak of Reagan's drug war. The races changed but not the homicide rate, the common denominator is not race, but a disastrous policy. Nevertheless, if we accept that crime rates are higher among impoverished people, then blacks, arguably the most impoverished of all, should have higher crime rates inspite of institutional racism. Those rates would be even higher if not for Roe v Wade which disproportionally reduced the number of babies born into high risk situations.

Even Jesse "I wont call you Rev" Jackson said he's more nervous walking down an alley at night in the black part of town than the white part.