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Originally posted by VetLegion
I don't think everything is in GDP/capita, mind you.
I don't think everything is in GDP/capita, mind you.
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I don't believe that either
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That's... good I guess. Prepare for a lot of cuts and bruises thoughOriginally posted by VetLegion
Yeah, I know. I kind of believe that if we set our minds to it, there is nothing we (as a society) can't do. The idea that we are predestined by our "culture" and "mentality" to behave in some particulary way and achieve only some things is not acceptable to me. I hate it
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Bah. The heavy intellectual effort it took to write previous couple of replies has exhausted me temporarily so I will take a break now
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That reference to Max Weber's Protestantism and Capitalism was really impressive btw.Comment
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It's been a while since I've read it, but he did not specifically argue it was due to religion or at least not entirely. You do not need to be a believer in Weber's theory to acknowledge that Spanish rule was the least accomodative to science and trade across Europe.Originally posted by VetLegion
I've read Landes' "The Wealth Of Nations", but I was concentrating on Europe vs. the rest of the world part so I don't remember his ideas on southern Europe specifically.
Basically he recycled the argument of Max Weber, that causes of economic success are primarily cultural (as opposed to geographical (Jared Diamond) or coincidental). It's hard to argue with that. Weber argued that certain types of protestantism were/are crucial for capitalism. That's seems to have been true. Whether the difference in development today can still be explained with religion is questionable, as is whether religion is still the defining force of "culture" and "mentality".
Not all Asian states were the same. Japan has a much more recent of decentralisation than China does and the Tokugawa shogunate was did not posses unlimited control over its subjects, unlike China's emperors. The shoguns were bound by rules and the fact they were nominal subjects of the emperor.Opression wouldn't explain the economic miracles of East Asian countries where similar (if not worse) history of centralized and oppresive governments applies.
Sure, trust, type of contract enforcement and nature of relationship with state all play a part in economic performance.
The interesting question for me is are there "roofs" for countries that depend on population (culture) and cannot be surpassed with government action alone (say, by more liberalism in economy). I mean relative roofs, not absolute. Would Italy profit from large scale privatisation? Will Greece always be at 75% of average EU GDP/capita? Can Spain and Sweden switch places? Will Croatia hit Italian levels of GDP/capita and stay there, or will we go higher?
And it may explain effectiveness of the state and the structure of the economy. It is interesting that the economy of a country like Taiwan is dominated by relatively small family-owned firms, while Korea's is dominated by massive chaebols, though both are about as wealthy.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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For instance:
Ferdinand I and his successors ruled the kingdom as absolute monarchs. The kings were reactionary and sided internally with the reactionary aristocracy and externally with Metternich's Austria which wanted to preserve the reactionary status quo in Europe and on the Italian peninsula which Austria considered to be in its sphere of influence. The kings ruthlessly repressed even the slightest form of liberal ideas that might arise from the people. The population was kept under the thumb by an extensive network of spies. Corruption was rife as the king allowed political supporters to enrich themselves in exchange for political support. In 1820 and in 1848 the king was forced to accept a liberal constitution after liberal revolutions took place in the Two Sicilies. Both revolutions failed with Austrian support and the absolute rule of the king was restored within a year of these revolutions.
And it is the case that northern Italian states such as Tuscany and Lombardy were far more succesful in pushing through reforms inspired by the enlightenment.
The nobility in the north had already previously shown to be more accomodative to trade, with day-labourers increasingly replacing share-croppers for instance, whereas in the south there was a process of refeudalisation and there was an influx of Spanish nobles who did not show any interest to develop their estates.
Let's not forget that has always been hard to talk of one Italy. The separate bits often have separate histories.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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One thing to keep in mind is that even with all of its problems, Italy is no worse off on average than Germany.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Can't really compare. Eastern Germany got ****ed up by the communists and the whole of the country got dragged down by the costs of reunification and a burst bubble. Southern Italy went wrong ever since the 16th century and the country got slumping on its own.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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OK, Italy is no worse off than France, for instance. Better?I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Good enough.
DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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If Italy's in such a sorry state, but is no worse off than most other European countries...I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Incidentally, this is something I cannot begin to explain. I guees Narthern Italy's economic dynamism makes up for the terrible situation down south.Originally posted by DanS
OK, Italy is no worse off than France, for instance. Better?"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- DisComment
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Wasnt Two Sicilies wealthier than the North at the thime of the reunification?I need a foot massageComment
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