Italy

[Bereta_Eder]

oh i forgot the "behind" bathing suit picture!

i'm still mad at you!

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Bereta_Eder


BTW Mr. Fun, you're trying to be fun again?

No, that was meant to be a serious point.

[Colon™]

Originally posted by VetLegion
What scares me most is ... countries on the same latitude and near each other tend to be similar. We have a lot in common with Italy. So far, our governments have been stable , but we have problems with corruption, crime and inefficient judiciary. Hopefully these are transition illnesses and we can overcome them and become something like Sweden only with better climate and no polar bears.

David S. Landes has an interesting theory about it. Basically he argues that regions such as Spain, Portugal and southern Italy and Latin America are relatively backward because they all endured ages of dogmatic, anti-intellectual rule, opposed to modern science and distrustful of business. Similar could be said of Greece under the Ottomans.

And Francis Fukuyama has another thoery that basically states that societies that endured repressive, highly centralised rule have low levels of trust between people outside of the family. That would explain why countries like Italy have ineffective government and an economy consisting of small, family-owned firms on the one hand, and large state-owned corporations on the other hand, with little in between.

[Bereta_Eder]

Hm. I can see Greece enduring ages of dogmatism and anti-intellectual rule under the Ottomans.

However, how was Portugal's history for example, more dogmatic or repressive than say Austria's?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Colon
And Francis Fukuyama has another thoery that basically states that societies that endured repressive, highly centralised rule have low levels of trust between people outside of the family. That would explain why countries like Italy have ineffective government and an economy consisting of small, family-owned firms on the one hand, and large state-owned corporations on the other hand, with little in between.

This trust thingy is actually not Fukuyama's argument, but Putnam's :nitpick:

[Datajack Franit]

There´s also a theory based on.. temperature. Basically, the hotter the climate, the less civilized the society

[Bereta_Eder]

Those arguments are just said by people who are jealous of the Mediteranean being the mother of civilization. And that tiny peninsula in the east particularly. But they are really hilarious.

[Bereta_Eder]

I don't particularly trust cosmotheories emanating from hardcore liberalists BTW. I knew a professor who claimed that catholics were un-productive, un-artistic etc by nature simply because they were catholics. Somehow that made them "inferior" to protestants according to his view. He didn't really know what to say when a fellow student point out capella sistina and challenged him to find anything to challenge that.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Colon


David S. Landes has an interesting theory about it. Basically he argues that regions such as Spain, Portugal and southern Italy and Latin America are relatively backward because they all endured ages of dogmatic, anti-intellectual rule, opposed to modern science and distrustful of business. Similar could be said of Greece under the Ottomans.

I've read Landes' "The Wealth Of Nations", but I was concentrating on Europe vs. the rest of the world part so I don't remember his ideas on southern Europe specifically.

Basically he recycled the argument of Max Weber, that causes of economic success are primarily cultural (as opposed to geographical (Jared Diamond) or coincidental). It's hard to argue with that. Weber argued that certain types of protestantism were/are crucial for capitalism. That's seems to have been true. Whether the difference in development today can still be explained with religion is questionable, as is whether religion is still the defining force of "culture" and "mentality".

And Francis Fukuyama has another thoery that basically states that societies that endured repressive, highly centralised rule have low levels of trust between people outside of the family. That would explain why countries like Italy have ineffective government and an economy consisting of small, family-owned firms on the one hand, and large state-owned/guided corporations on the other hand, with little in between.

Opression wouldn't explain the economic miracles of East Asian countries where similar (if not worse) history of centralized and oppresive governments applies.

Sure, trust, type of contract enforcement and nature of relationship with state all play a part in economic performance.

The interesting question for me is are there "roofs" for countries that depend on population (culture) and cannot be surpassed with government action alone (say, by more liberalism in economy). I mean relative roofs, not absolute. Would Italy profit from large scale privatisation? Will Greece always be at 75% of average EU GDP/capita? Can Spain and Sweden switch places? Will Croatia hit Italian levels of GDP/capita and stay there, or will we go higher?

[Bereta_Eder]

75% of EU of 15 member states GDP please. It was really relaxing to have the new members in so we are no longer at the bottom places of the list. According to the government's estimates it will take 20 years for full convergence to the EU15 GDP average. If you believe them...
However about Greece noone seems to take into accound the huge sums that go to defense. (Why do you think Greece brings no objections to Turkey's membership?) Especially for a country of 10 million. Not that corruption is not doing its massive damage too.

[Bereta_Eder]

However I think vetty you are "infected" with a kind of romantisism that was present here long ago. The corruption status found in Croatia (or Italy or Greece even though these are already "developed" countries) is in large part structural and isn't likely to go away simply by making laws. Most italian and greek laws governing transperancy are in very large extend similar to those found in countries where corruption is not so prevalent. Yet they are not enough.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
There´s also a theory based on.. temperature. Basically, the hotter the climate, the less civilized the society

Japan is more south then Italy, and has much worse climate with much more moisture. Westerners hate it. Closer to Europe, Cyprus is more developed than almost everything south of the Alps, and Israel is also strikingly more developed than its neighbours are, suggesting that latitude and temperature are not the crucial factors of economic development.

The general rule that "the southern you go the poorer it is" does hold though, with few exceptions. Hong Kong, Taiwan and even more Singapore and Malaysia are near the equator.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Bereta_Eder
75% of EU of 15 member states GDP please. It was really relaxing to have the new members in so we are no longer at the bottom places of the list.

I don't think everything is in GDP/capita, mind you. I'm just speculating. And of course, the quality of life depends on many things. There are only so many gizmos and widgets that go towards improving it.

Living in a little poorer but more relaxed country has a lot of advantages. It could even be that: corruption+wealth+quality of life=const., and you can't increase one without decreasing others.

There is a joke this reminds me of that started circulating with EU ascension process:

A Croat and a Serb die and go to hell. At the gates of hell they are given two options: go to EU hell where you get to swallow a bucket of crap in the morning and are free the rest of the day, and the East European hell where you also have to eat crap, but arbitarily. Croat says "I've always been Europe oriented, I'll go to EU hell.". The Serb goes to East European hell. After a year, they meet and ask each other how they are doing. The Croat says: "In the morning, I swallow crap, but then I am free. It's bareable I guess, until the next morning . How are you doing in East European hell?" And the Serb replies: weeeell, you know how it is. East Europe, East Europe. Sometimes there are shortages of crap, sometimes the truck is late, then the drivers are on strike... I didn't even get to taste the thing yet."

[VetLegion]

The corruption status found in Croatia (or Italy or Greece even though these are already "developed" countries) is in large part structural and isn't likely to go away simply by making laws. Most italian and greek laws governing transperancy are in very large extend similar to those found in countries where corruption is not so prevalent. Yet they are not enough.

Yeah, I know. I kind of believe that if we set our minds to it, there is nothing we (as a society) can't do. The idea that we are predestined by our "culture" and "mentality" to behave in some particulary way and achieve only some things is not acceptable to me. I hate it

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by VetLegion
A Croat and a Serb die and go to hell. At the gates of hell they are given two options: go to EU hell where you get to swallow a bucket of crap in the morning and are free the rest of the day, and the East European hell where you also have to eat crap, but arbitarily. Croat says "I've always been Europe oriented, I'll go to EU hell.". The Serb goes to East European hell. After a year, they meet and ask each other how they are doing. The Croat says: "In the morning, I swallow crap, but then I am free. It's bareable I guess, until the next morning . How are you doing in East European hell?" And the Serb replies: weeeell, you know how it is. East Europe, East Europe. Sometimes there are shortages of crap, sometimes the truck is late, then the drivers are on strike... I didn't even get to taste the thing yet."

ROFL!