It's out again - "under God" and the 9th circuit

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Dinodoc - would you be opposed to ceremonially saying "...under Baron Samedi?" He is a legitimate deity (or spirit actually) as recognized by Vodoun. How about under Brahma, we have numerous Americans of Indian ancestry. If you cannot interchange them, and those supporting it would refuse to support it, it doesn't pass the smell test (But THAT'S DIFFERENT). Sadly, the ceremonial deism test is probably going to get past our 100% Judeo-Christian SCOTUS. Do you see any conflict of interest?

hmm, baron samedi? lord sabbath, I suppose? interesting.

Wouldnt the parallel be pledging to Jesus Christ, or to Adonai eloheinu, or to God the Father? God in English is used generically, by most. Muslims use it in place of Allah, Hindus use God or godhead IIUC.


I can see where polytheists would have a problem (though couldnt they insert an "s" - one nation under gods?)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Berzerker


The government is instructing children to stand and pledge allegiance to its god(s) with our money. We are coerced into paying for the state's attempt to convert our children, and we are coerced into using those public schools where our children are coerced into pledging allegiance to the state's god(s). That all happens before our children even enter the school to be coerced into taking the pledge. Still dont see the coercion?

Hell, who even needs the 1st Amendment? This is unconstitutional on the grounds there is no power in the Constitution authorising Congress to make this daily request of our children!

Hows this for coercion then. I used to send my kid to a Jewish day school, where she said the pledge with under God, and said a full jewish morning service at the beginning of the day as well. We took her out, at least in part because of the expense. But have to pay taxes to support the public schools whether I send her to them or not. If youre against coercion, shouldnt you support vouchers that can be used for private religious schools?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom


James Madison letter to Edward Livingston, 10th July 1822


Clearly a lot water has passed over the Bush since then...



So if you're a monotheist, hooray for you.

If, on the other hand, you profess no religious belief, or are a polytheist, then too bad, you're on your own.


One nation, under the thumb.

"The Church of England plans to raise millions of pounds to create an extra 100 secondary schools over the next seven to eight years, as the government prepares to increase its subsidy for church-sponsored schools.
Under its plans to revitalise secondary education in England, the government has promised to cut the amount religious organisations must contribute towards a school's capital costs from 15% to 10%, freeing funds for extra places.


But secular organisations have criticised the move, saying it will lead to a more splintered and fragmented society.

The Church of England currently has 4,540 state primary schools, but just 204 secondaries - with some getting 160 applications for every 100 places. "

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Hows this for coercion then. I used to send my kid to a Jewish day school, where she said the pledge with under God, and said a full jewish morning service at the beginning of the day as well. We took her out, at least in part because of the expense. But have to pay taxes to support the public schools whether I send her to them or not. If youre against coercion, shouldnt you support vouchers that can be used for private religious schools?

Uh, you do realize who you're talking to, right?

[lord of the mark]

oh is berzerker a libertarian or something? I avoid the cap vs com vs libertarian threads here, i wasnt sure.

[MarkG]

greeks tend to think of themselves as a highly patriotic bunch of people but our children dont sing the national anthem every morning

i believe we used to have such a thing only during the junta....

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MarkG
greeks tend to think of themselves as a highly patriotic bunch of people but our children dont sing the national anthem every morning

i believe we used to have such a thing only during the junta....

Have you successfully integrated millions of non-Greek immigrants?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Have you successfully integrated millions of non-Greek immigrants?

No, they do the opposite, expell minorites.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Have you successfully integrated millions of non-Greek immigrants?

The US has far less immigration per capita (by a factor of 2) than either Canada or Australia, yet we don't feel the need to have our kids recite ritualistic nationalist idol-worship every day...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


The US has far less immigration per capita (by a factor of 2) than either Canada or Australia, yet we don't feel the need to have our kids recite ritualistic nationalist idol-worship every day...

Im sure you have your own methods of integration, that work for you. Ours work for us. Whats it matter to you? (See my new location description)

Oh, and good luck with your national unity thing.

[lord of the mark]

"Quebec is already exceedingly generous toward private schools. They receive public funds equivalent to 60 per cent of the per-student funding available to public schools. Mr. Charest and Education Minister Pierre Reid decided last month to raise the level to 100 per cent for the secular component of private Jewish schools, at a potential cost of $10-million, as long as a public board agreed to engage in cultural exchange programs with those schools. The Education Act makes provision for this. A couple of Greek private schools have enjoyed such an arrangement for years, and Mr. Charest said he was prepared to look at other such requests, case by case."

*drools with envy

[KrazyHorse]

Because it's doing more harm than good.

A healthy amount of skepticism when it comes to nationalism is positive

An environment where children daily pledge allegiance to a flag is more than a little bit cultish for my tastes.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
"Quebec is already exceedingly generous toward private schools. They receive public funds equivalent to 60 per cent of the per-student funding available to public schools. Mr. Charest and Education Minister Pierre Reid decided last month to raise the level to 100 per cent for the secular component of private Jewish schools, at a potential cost of $10-million, as long as a public board agreed to engage in cultural exchange programs with those schools. The Education Act makes provision for this. A couple of Greek private schools have enjoyed such an arrangement for years, and Mr. Charest said he was prepared to look at other such requests, case by case."

*drools with envy

Fix your public schools first. Then when they're not ****holes you'd have to be afraid of sending your kids to you can ask for rebates from the state...

[MarkG]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Have you successfully integrated millions of non-Greek immigrants?

for a start, we dont have our 1+ mil. albanians in ghetos....

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by KrazyHorse

Because it's doing more harm than good.

Oh, is this one of those the US invaded Iraq, so now everyone on the planet has the right to criticize every domestic thing in the US? Gotcha.

A healthy amount of skepticism when it comes to nationalism is positive

Ditto for ANY ism.

An environment where children daily pledge allegiance to a flag is more than a little bit cultish for my tastes.

I can tell you that the social studies education that POTM received both at jewish day school, and at preschool, encouraged debate and questioning. Not cultish at all. And she even has enough skepticism not to judge say, an entire educational system, based on a brief morning ceremony. A skepticism, and humility of judgement, I find strangely lacking in people who come from "environments" that theoretically encourage healthy skepicism.