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It's out again - "under God" and the 9th circuit

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  • It's out again - "under God" and the 9th circuit

    By DAVID KRAVETS, Associated Press Writer
    Wed Sep 14,10:55 PM ET



    SAN FRANCISCO - A federal judge declared the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools unconstitutional Wednesday, a decision that could put the divisive issue on track for another round of Supreme Court arguments.

    The case was brought by the same atheist whose previous battle against the words "under God" was rejected last year by the Supreme Court on procedural grounds.

    U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

    Karlton said he was bound by precedent of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which in 2002 ruled in favor of Sacramento atheist Michael Newdow that the pledge is unconstitutional when recited in public schools.

    The Supreme Court dismissed the case last year, saying Newdow lacked standing because he did not have custody of his elementary school daughter he sued on behalf of.

    Newdow, an attorney and a medical doctor, filed an identical case on behalf of three unnamed parents and their children. Karlton said those families have the right to sue.

    Newdow hopes that will make it more likely the merits of his case will be addressed by the high court.

    "All it has to do is put the pledge as it was before, and say that we are one nation, indivisible, instead of dividing us on religious basis," Newdow told The Associated Press.

    "Imagine every morning if the teachers had the children stand up, place their hands over their hearts, and say, 'We are one nation that denies God exists,'" Newdow said.

    "I think that everybody would not be sitting here saying, 'Oh, what harm is that.' They'd be furious. And that's exactly what goes on against atheists. And it shouldn't."

    Karlton, ruling in Sacramento, said he would sign a restraining order preventing the recitation of the pledge at the Elk Grove Unified, Rio Linda and Elverta Joint Elementary school districts in Sacramento County, where the plaintiffs' children attend.

    The order would not extend beyond those districts unless it is affirmed by the 9th Circuit, in which case it could apply to nine western states, or the Supreme Court, which would apply to all states.

    The decision sets up another showdown over the pledge in schools, at a time when the makeup of the Supreme Court is in flux.

    Wednesday's ruling comes as Supreme Court nominee John Roberts faces day three of his confirmation hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee. He would succeed the late William H. Rehnquist as chief justice.

    In July, Sandra Day O'Connor announced her plans to retire when a successor is confirmed.

    The Becket Fund, a religious rights group that is a party to the case, said it would immediately appeal the case to the San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. If the court does not change its precedent, the group would go to the Supreme Court.

    "It's a way to get this issue to the Supreme Court for a final decision to be made," said fund attorney Jared Leland.

    The decisions by Karlton and the 9th Circuit conflict with an August opinion by the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Va. That court upheld a Virginia law requiring public schools lead daily Pledge of Allegiance recitation, which is similar to the requirement in California.

    A three-judge panel of that circuit ruled that the pledge is a patriotic exercise, not a religious affirmation similar to a prayer.

    "Undoubtedly, the pledge contains a religious phrase, and it is demeaning to persons of any faith to assert that the words `under God' contain no religious significance," Judge Karen Williams wrote for the 4th Circuit. "The inclusion of those two words, however, does not alter the nature of the pledge as a patriotic activity."

    Karlton, appointed to the Sacramento bench in 1979 by President Carter, wrote that the case concerned "the ongoing struggle as to the role of religion in the civil life of this nation" and added that his opinion "will satisfy no one involved in that debate."

    Karlton dismissed claims that the 1954 Congressional legislation inserting the words "under God" was unconstitutional. If his ruling stands, he reasoned that the school children and their parents in the case would not be harmed by the phrase because they would no longer have to recite it at school.

    Terence Cassidy, a lawyer representing the school districts, said he was reviewing the opinion and was not immediately prepared to comment.


    Simple question (remember "under God" was only added fifty years ago and was NOT part of the original pledge). If you don't mind your children reciting it with "under Allah" or "under Baron Samedi" than you are being consistant. Otherwise, and IMHO, it IS a good decision, and strictly constitutional.
    The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
    And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
    Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
    Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.

  • #2
    This is a stupid argument.
    "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

    Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

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    • #3
      His argument is logical.
      "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
      —Orson Welles as Harry Lime

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      • #4
        Both Jag and Moses are correct.
        I'm consitently stupid- Japher
        I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

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        • #5
          I hope SCOTUS settles this rather than kicking the can back down the road again.
          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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          • #6
            Now that Bush is going to have his way there's no chance of it surviving, despite its obvious legal correctness.
            12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
            Stadtluft Macht Frei
            Killing it is the new killing it
            Ultima Ratio Regum

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            • #7
              No to Allah, thats Arabic not English.
              Yes to Baron Samedi
              Last edited by Whoha; September 15, 2005, 10:47.

              Comment


              • #8
                god causes too many problems
                Monkey!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've never quite understand that pledge of allegiance thing. What is it's purpose? I doubt any kids actually plot to overthrow the american way of life, and if they do, a simple lie will propably be a little thing... If they go out and blow up a fed building, will they be hold accountable for this broken pledge also?

                  Reminds me of Catch 22...
                  I've allways wanted to play "Russ Meyer's Civilization"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
                    I've never quite understand that pledge of allegiance thing. What is it's purpose? I doubt any kids actually plot to overthrow the american way of life, and if they do, a simple lie will propably be a little thing... If they go out and blow up a fed building, will they be hold accountable for this broken pledge also?

                    Reminds me of Catch 22...
                    The pledge was instituted (without under God) during the period of mass immigration at the end of the 19th century. The purpose was to remind immigrant children that their principle loyalty was to America, and not to their nations of origin. It also served to reassure the native born about the new immigrants. All in all it worked pretty well, Id say (though obviously it was only one element among many)

                    Now as long as they dont ban "for Richard, stand" i'll be pleased.
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                    • #11
                      Don't the courts have better things to do with their time?
                      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                      • #12
                        Didn't Ike have better things to do with his time than throw in the God reference?
                        12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                        Stadtluft Macht Frei
                        Killing it is the new killing it
                        Ultima Ratio Regum

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DanS
                          Don't the courts have better things to do with their time?
                          Don't atheist groups have better things to do with their time than to bother courts with stupid lawsuits?
                          'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
                          G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"

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                          • #14
                            ...one nation under Pte san win.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              hell

                              if they are going to allow duel citizenship and still have this allegence thing then they might as well have us all committing blasphemey as well as hypocracy!
                              Monkey!!!

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