Bush has failed

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Patroklos
You will note that the Abraham Lincohn did not "respond" to the tsunami, it was already there on its way to deployment.

No, on the day of the tsumani, the Lincoln task force crew were on R and R in Hong Kong, hundreds of miles from the disaster zone. They had no relief supplies; they were equipped for war.

The task force sailed to Singapore where they went out and bought relief supplies and then went to help Indonesia.

I thought you were in the navy. Why is it that you're minimizing the incredible job that the U.S. navy did? I can tell you that people in Asia have a lot of respect and admiration for what the U.S. navy did.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Apparently what they can do is exagerate everything possible, be critics of EVERYTHING, and have their makeup perfect in the middle of a hurricane.

But they were there, first on the scene, and for some reason that counts for something?

Exaggerate? What proof do you have of that? None. The reporters are telling it as they see it. The fact is that more than 25,000 people were left behind. The fact is that the response has been slow. The fact is that there were solutions that could have been applied to help. Republicans and Democrats agree on that.

And dude, I said it before and I guess I have to say it again. i'm not criticizing the military response. What I'm saying is that there has been a major failure at the top.

[Patroklos]

No, on the day of the tsumani, the Lincoln task force crew were on R and R in Hong Kong, hundreds of miles from the disaster zone. They had no relief supplies; they were equipped for war.

No, what I said was that they were on their way to deployment, which is what happened. Hundreds of miles is nothing to the Navy.

I thought you were in the navy. Why is it that you're minimizing the incredible job that the U.S. navy did?

What I said does not minimize anything, it is lucky they were there. I do however believe in telling the truth, unexaggerated.

Ideally, the barracks would be empty anyway, as the kids would be involved in the rescue operations. And when it's over, the kids could sleep in tents for a while. Nothing wrong with that, it would give them some field experience and make them better prepared for times of war.

What exactly would flooding the region with several hundred thousand peole untrained to deal with this do for those people in NO? My Disbursing Clerks are great guys, but besides standing around with the already 1000s of arrived aid workers who are unable to gain access to the city center, they would just get in the way.

[Patroklos]

Exaggerate? What proof do you have of that?

Anyone who turned on the TV un aquainted with the situation right now would have no recourse but to assume the 7th seal has been broken, the fourth horsemen is on his way, and that the Moon will turn blood red tonight.

Incidently, the story of 1 million+ evacuated and cared for LA and MS citizens is apparently too mundane to report. No ratings. The fact that people are in fact not starving to death also too mundane. The fact that the entire city of New Orleans is NOT under water, also not worth it.

And dude, I said it before and I guess I have to say it again. i'm not criticizing the military response. What I'm saying is that there has been a major failure at the top.

The caveat being that you think the miltary could have done more if ordered to.

[Whoha]

Too bad the state and local people were also sitting on their collective asses.

[Tingkai]

Man, this is funny.

The Lincoln task force was about 1,500 miles away from Indonesia. In four days they were on site ready to provide aid. That ain't no small accomplishment and it sure the hell ain't luck. It's skill.

As for flooding the region with troops, no one is asking for hundreds of thousands of troops, but 10,000 would have made a difference.

Besides, there was no need to rely on barracks. Aircraft hangers could have been used to provide shelter. Tents could have been flown into an air base and quickly set up. The military has mobile kitchens, shelters, laterines, etc that could have been flown into the closest air base that was not hit by the strom.

A lot could have been done if the U.S. military had been given the order to help in whatever way it could.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Patroklos
What exactly would flooding the region with several hundred thousand peole untrained to deal with this do for those people in NO? My Disbursing Clerks are great guys, but besides standing around with the already 1000s of arrived aid workers who are unable to gain access to the city center, they would just get in the way.

Militaries normally don't train for situations like this, but they are ordered to help out anyway, as they are strong, fit and have nothing better to do. 1000's of healthy kids in humvees, trucks, buses, rubber boats, helicopters, whatever you have in your "world-leading logistics capacity" would make a huge difference, carrying old people onto buses or handing out water rations or whatever manual labour that needs to be done. And they have rifles and body armour to protect themselves agains looters and hobby snipers, so that would not be an issue.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Anyone who turned on the TV un aquainted with the situation right now would have no recourse but to assume the 7th seal has been broken, the fourth horsemen is on his way, and that the Moon will turn blood red tonight.

People in the Superdome were forced to stay there. No food, no water, no facilities. They were left to the prey of criminals who were raping people. The authorities were no where to be seen. Buildings were set afire. People were firing guns. Criminal gangs were looting stores. Law abiding citizens were forced to break the law just to survive. The sick and disabled were abandoned. Women who just gave birth were kicked out of hospitals and separated from their children. Hospitals ran out of supplies and had no way to care for the ill. People were stranded on rooftops for days on end.

But you know the truth and everything is wonderful, eh.

[Patroklos]

Militaries normally don't train for situations like this, but they are ordered to help out anyway, as they are strong, fit and have nothing better to do. 1000's of healthy kids in humvees, trucks, buses, rubber boats, helicopters, whatever you have in your "world-leading logistics capacity" would make a huge difference, carrying old people onto buses or handing out water rations or whatever manual labour that needs to be done. And they have rifles and body armour to protect themselves agains looters and hobby snipers, so that would not be an issue.

If you don't mind all your relief supplies being eaten by a flood of relief workers not actually releiving anything. There is little access to the regions where these workers of needed. You guys do understand there is flooding right. There are already 1000s sitting around on the outskirts of the devastating doing what they can, but obviously not what their potential is becuase THEY CANT GET THERE!!!

whatever you have in your "world-leading logistics capacity"

Set up to do what there job is, which is not this. Give us a week and we could flood the place with all sorts of crap, mostly military related with no useful purpose in NO, and again on the outskirts BECAUSE THERE IS NO ACCESS TO THE WORST AREAS, tipified the fact that they are the worst areas, no access is why they are that way.

[Patroklos]

But you know the truth and everything is wonderful, eh.

Everything you just said is the reason it is a disaster. That is what happens in a disaster. That these things happen in a disaster, because it is a disaster, has nothing to do with whether the response is moving as fast as can reasonably be expected.

Like I said earlier, you have impossible expectations, so are naturally disappinted.

[Chemical Ollie]

You guys do understand there is flooding right. There are already 1000s sitting around on the outskirts of the devastating doing what they can, but obviously not what their potential is becuase THEY CANT GET THERE!!!

Massive flooding was expected already on Sunday, 2 days before it was a fact. There are many ways for logistics organisations to overcome flooding, like rubber boats, helicopters, parachute supply drops and whatever.

The government should sieze/purchase all rubber boats in the region, apart from the ones the military already have in their own stores.

[Q Classic]

Actually, I'm a pessimist. You're absolutely right, Patroklos--the response has been damn near miraculous, because I wasn't expecting anybody in the country to give a damn about a third-rate city.

[Patroklos]

I don't want anynone to think that I don't think this is a huge mess.

I just think the response is on par with what an reasonable expectation could have been.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I don't want anynone to think that I don't think this is a huge mess.

I just think the response is on par with what an reasonable expectation could have been.

I'm not saying nothing is done etc. I'm saying it's too little, too late, but it's not necessarily Bush's fault (see my loooooong post 1-2 hours ago).

But I'm curious why your ship is not deployed and sailing at full speed towards the area, or if not, most manpower at your base flied in to help. (or perhaps it is, you tell me).

[Q Classic]

Honestly, Patroklos, with the way that you're saying things, it most certainly does sound like you're downplaying everything, as if these are no more than a small shame.

That's not to say that it's unlikely that there's exaggeration going on here (there probably is), it's just that hewing to what Bush and co. are saying when people on the ground and in various blogs are contradicting them... is quite suspicious.