Bush has failed

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
Tingkai: re: bush's statements.

Is this true? Seriously? I mean, ****, we're getting offers from the EU, Korea, Japan, and a host of less well-off-nations, like the Dominican Republic.

I misstated his response. What Bush said is: "I’m not expecting much from foreign nations because we hadn’t asked for it."

Which is still a slap in the face of American allies. His attitude is that other countries won't help unless they are asked, when in fact, many countries immediately offered help. I know Canada is willing to help. We don't care who is in the White House, we just want to offer whatever support our neighbours need.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Sprayber
That's pretty much what everyone is saying. I just don't see why everyone has to get hung up on the fact that the goverment is moving as slow as it usually does. That has pretty much been my experience in everything the federal goverment is involved in. When I'm in a disaster like that I'm not going to expect the feds to help me. Local resuce workers and the kindness of those around me are the only thing I expect for a long time. The fed is a lumbering giant that takes it's sweet time doing anything. Rapid and federal (unless it's fedex )just don't belong in the same sentence. I know that they could if they planned correctly but I have yet to see any instance from any time where the federal goverment did anything fast.

I think you underestimate what your government can do.

The U.S. reacted incredibly quickly to the tsunami disaster, and my hats off to them for doing so. A U.S. Navy task force was diverted to Singapore. They bought the supplies they needed and were soon off the western Indonesian coast. Thousands of Indonesians owe their lives to the quick response of the U.S. Navy.

That's what's so annoying about what is happening now. Why is it that the U.S. can respond quickly to a crisis oveseas, but can't deal with a crisis at home?

One possible explanation is that Navy commanders are trained to make independent decisions. What's happening now seems to be a lot of people running around looking for someone to take charge.

[Q Classic]

Pekka, please, everybody knows both Mark and David are lousy lovers, both of them having been circumcised.

===

Tingkai: I'll agree, that's probably not the best response; he should know better, what with the unrequested but general outpouring of support the whole world gave in the wake of previous disasters, not just in the US. It mystifies me.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Tingkai


I think you underestimate what your government can do.

The U.S. reacted incredibly quickly to the tsunami disaster, and my hats off to them for doing so. A U.S. Navy task force was diverted to Singapore. They bought the supplies they needed and were soon off the western Indonesian coast. Thousands of Indonesians owe their lives to the quick response of the U.S. Navy.

I'm not going by what they can do, I'm going by what they have done in the past. I included in my post that it was within their capability to respond quicker but they have never done so. Your wanting to bash Bush which is fine if that's what you like to do but all I'm saying is that if I'm in a disaster like that I'm looking toward the locals for help. If they don't have their **** together, the feds won't be there in force for about a week.

[Patroklos]

Tingkai,

You are blind. The US military was providing aid before the damn thing even hit. The day of the hurricane the Army Corps of Engineers was running all over the place. The fact there there are several major military bases IN the disaster zone makes you claim ridiculous.

The USS Battan arrived the day of the hurricane and has been running helos non stop since. The day after the USS Shreavport and USS Ashland headed down. Those three ships are equal to three airports with 5000 aid workers each, also loaded out with food (I was berthed across from the Shreveport, it was ALOT of stuff). There are now seven Navy ships off the coast.

The day of the storm Bush dispatched a Lt. General to hed up the relief efforts, and from all accounts he has been kicking ass and taking names since then. There are over 10,000 soldiers involved in ground operations.

There are over 200 military helicopters operating in NO. Note there are over 50 news choppers flying around doing nothing.

And of course the fact that 90% of the people in this devastated region are evacuated and cared for, what failure do you speak of anyways?

[Q Classic]

Hmm... well, I suppose we could always look on the brighter side of things: It could be worse. New Orleans could have been washed out to sea.

[Chemical Ollie]

I'm not sure if Bush should be blamed for the "too little, too late" claims, as I believe the government agencies should have authority to act on their own to a great extent. (I'm not sure about the legal issues here, though.)

But all I've been hearing from the US military servicemen and cheerleaders here on 'Poly in the last year are things like:

- We have the best logistics of any army in the world (Yeah, right, why then do people pass out from thirst even in the government sponsored refugee camps?)
- Our navy has an incredible freshwater production capacity (see above)
- We are the richest country in the world (Ok, so funding of the rescue would not be a problem then)

On the other hand, the evacuate orders saved 100 000's of lifes and the politicians who issued them deserves a medal for that decision alone, despite some other failures. But they should have mobilised the National Guard already on Sunday (Don't know if they actually did, forgive me if I'm wrong here. I know those orders take a while to implement.) And all the military units not stationed abroad should had prepared for the rescue operation alreayd in sunday. All empty military barracks should be prepared to house refugees. But to my knowledge, nothing of that happened until Tuesday or Wednesday, if at all.

And why not use goverment resuorses to help evacuate old/disabled/poor/stubborn people BEFORE the storm? Ride police cars down every suburb street with speakers on the roof, calling out orders to go to the closest school/church/whatever, where buses would pick them up within a certain deadline. Getting to Superdome 10-30 miles away by foot or public transportation was probably impossible for most of them.

The only significant divergence from the worst nightmare scenario (New Orleans will be erased from earth), that was predicted in the news already on Sunday, was the fact that the wind peaks and flooding did not co-incide in time. The winds came on Monday and the Noah flood on Tuesday. But the worst nighmare scenario DID come true, and it was all in the news 1-2 days before it happened.

But then again, give me one disaster, anywhere in the world, ever, where the government have done everything right?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Sprayber


I'm not going by what they can do, I'm going by what they have done in the past.

I've given an example of what your country has done in the past.

The USS Abraham Lincoln was off the coast of Indonesia on Dec. 30, four days after the tsunami hit. So in the past, your government has responded quickly to a crisis, and in ways that no other country could respond. ( And the current crisis makes the U.S. Navy's response in Indonesia even more amazing).

Doesn't it bug you that your country cannot help your neighbors the way that it can help people in other countries?

Maybe it doesn't, but if I was an American, I'd be pissed off. I wouldn't accept any lame ass excuses.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Patroklos
---
There are over 200 military helicopters operating in NO. Note there are over 50 news choppers flying around doing nothing.
---

If I was a reporter flying in a news helicopter covering this event, I would spend a few hundred dollars of my private or corporate money (whatever my boss allows) to fill the chopper with bottled water and drop it to people on roof tops, who are too many for a news chopper to even try to evacuate, anyway.

[Patroklos]

If I was a reporter flying in a news helicopter covering this event, I would spend a few hundred dollars of my private or corporate money (whatever my boss allows) to fill the chopper with bottled water and drop it to people on roof tops, who are too many for a news chopper to even try to evacuate, anyway.

Too bad your not a reporter. As it is, they are far to busy endlessly repeating themselves and making sure everyone notices they are there to actually help. I am sure you could fit one or too refugees in a news chopper. Not like there are not plenty of places to land with all those elevated highways everywhere.

It just goes to show how it is far easier, and politically expediant, to be critics of those helping than to bother with the truth.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Tingkai,

You are blind. The US military was providing aid before the damn thing even hit.

Hold on, dude. In no way am I criticizing the U.S. military here. If it wasn't for them, there would be a hell of a lot more people dead.

The problem is a lack of leadership at the top. I suspect that the military could do a lot more, but the troops can't more unless they receive orders. Some have been told to help, other have not. The mayor of New Orleans is calling for more help and he is not getting it. That's not the fault of the military. My bet is that there are military units chomping at the bit to help out, but they can't go without orders.

Originally posted by Patroklos
The day of the storm Bush dispatched a Lt. General to hed up the relief efforts, and from all accounts he has been kicking ass and taking names since then.

Yup, the mayor of New Orleans is saying this guy is doing a great job and should be put in charge.

Originally posted by Patroklos
And of course the fact that 90% of the people in this devastated region are evacuated and cared for, what failure do you speak of anyways?

They weren't evacuated. They were told to leave and those who could did.

But a lot of people were left behind. The sick and disabled had no way of getting out on their own. No help was provided to them.

Many of the poor didn't have any money because it was the end of the month and their welfare cheques wouldn't come until Sept. 1 when it was too late for them to get away.

These people were abandoned.

There was simply no evacuation. It was simply get out if you can, and if you can't, you're screwed.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Too bad your not a reporter. As it is, they are far to busy endlessly repeating themselves and making sure everyone notices they are there to actually help. I am sure you could fit one or too refugees in a news chopper. Not like there are not plenty of places to land with all those elevated highways everywhere.

It just goes to show how it is far easier, and politically expediant, to be critics of those helping than to bother with the truth.

The reporters are driving in their own cars or catching rides on the few empty planes heading in to pick up people. It is much easier to get in, then to get out.

I've covered minor disasters and it is difficult to go in and then realize there is no way to help people. What can one person with a pen and paper do? What journalists can do is tell people about what is happening, the problems and the chaos.

If it wasn't for the reporters on the ground, people wouldn't know about the problems. We would just have the government line that everything is running smoothly.

[Patroklos]

On the other hand, the evacuate orders saved 100 000's of lifes and the politicians who issued them deserves a medal for that decision alone, despite some other failures. But they should have mobilised the National Guard already on Sunday (Don't know if they actually did, forgive me if I'm wrong here. I know those orders take a while to implement.) And all the military units not stationed abroad should had prepared for the rescue operation alreayd in sunday. All empty military barracks should be prepared to house refugees. But to my knowledge, nothing of that happened until Tuesday or Wednesday, if at all.

You are wrong, on all accounts.

If you can find me a military barracks not filled with 17-18 year old E-1 to E-3s, be my guest.

The USS Abraham Lincoln was off the coast of Indonesia on Dec. 30, four days after the tsunami hit. So in the past, your government has responded quickly to a crisis, and in ways that no other country could respond. ( And the current crisis makes the U.S. Navy's response in Indonesia even more amazing).

You will note that the Abraham Lincohn did not "respond" to the tsunami, it was already there on its way to deployment. And while I doubt you know this, the Baatan is a far better equiped ship to respond to a disaster like this. A carrier houses airplanes. This particular amphib is designed to house 3000 marines for extended periods of time.

And we are not in the habit of having battle groups deployed in the Gulf of Mexico. Not that it matters, it would have moved out of the way of the hurricane itself anyways.

Maybe it doesn't, but if I was an American, I'd be pissed off. I wouldn't accept any lame ass excuses.

If you expect the impossible, you should not be at all suprised when it doesn't happen.

I suspect the only thing that would make you happy is if we had a full spare uninhabited metropolis somewhere, and transporters to instantly zap every victim instantaneously to a new, better, house with a hot dinner waiting for them at the table.

[Patroklos]

I've covered minor disasters and it is difficult to go in and then realize there is no way to help people. What can one person with a pen and paper do? What journalists can do is tell people about what is happening, the problems and the chaos.

Apparently what they can do is exagerate everything possible, be critics of EVERYTHING, and have their makeup perfect in the middle of a hurricane.

But they were there, first on the scene, and for some reason that counts for something?

[Chemical Ollie]

You are wrong, on all accounts.

ALL accounts? I still think the major did the right thing when he issued the evacuation order, but that's just me. If all military units were deployed on Sunday, how come you are still posting here, all day long? Shouldn't you be involved in the rescue operations?

If you can find me a military barracks not filled with 17-18 year old E-1 to E-3s, be my guest.

Ideally, the barracks would be empty anyway, as the kids would be involved in the rescue operations. And when it's over, the kids could sleep in tents for a while. Nothing wrong with that, it would give them some field experience and make them better prepared for times of war. Better give the barracks with beds, showers and cantinas to people who need it more.