Cindy Sheehan Has No Moral Authority

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


There's no comparison: Japan didn't have an insurgency, and it did have a willingness to rubber-stamp our constitution.

That might tell you something. Ten years given those conditions...

We must not pull out -- we agree. But everything about what we're doing there -- the inadequate number of troops we've committed, the ridiculous moving of the goalposts every 2-3 months, and above all the shabby, deceptive rhetoric from the administration -- is simply wrong. Our not-so-excellent adventure in Iraq obviously needs to be re-thought from the ground up -- but the people we're relying on to do that are incapable of ever admitting that they were wrong about anything. If Americans have lost patience with Iraq, it's not because they can't stomach war but because they can't stomach war on these terms. And who could blame them?

Themselves and the rest of the world if you prove incapable of living with your own decisions on wars, congresspeople, and presidents?

You know, I'll bet it's no fun to be a peace loving citizen of Baghdad right about now, either. The difference is that you guys theoretically have a choice. Oh, and the car bombs aren't going off anywhere near your block.

[Az]

I really don't see what you people are arguing about, since it's pretty obvious you both agree on the basics:

US must stay in Iraq, to clean it's own mess.

The rest is just details.

[notyoueither]

True dat.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Az
I really don't see what you people are arguing about, since it's pretty obvious you both agree on the basics:

US must stay in Iraq, to clean it's own mess.

The rest is just details.

Sort of. The real problem is that the Administration has offered absolutely no plan for cleaning up its mess (and no, just staying there isn't such a plan). The problem, then, is that right now Americans are being offered only two choices:

1) Get out
2) Stay the course

If these are the only choices, then they both suck, and of the two getting out is preferable. Neither choice will stabilize Iraq; neither choice will stop its slide into chaos. But getting out will at least get our soldiers our of harm's way.

There is, obviously, a third choice: re-think the war and fight it properly. This is the best choice -- indeed, the only humane choice -- but it's not on the table. Why? Mostly because it would require the chickenhawk administration to admit that they've screwed up (and lied), and they will never, ever do that.

So there's really two questions.

1) What should the US do? (on this we all agree); and
2) What should the US do if the administration is too stupid and pigheaded to do the right thing? (On this we disagree).

[Drake Tungsten]

Iraq is sliding into chaos?

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Iraq is sliding into chaos?

Yeah, that seemed an odd statement to me too. It's been in chaos for months, if not years already.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


I actually agree with you about this. But that's why "stay the course" is making people so nervous. We shouldn't stay the course; that's not going anywhere. It won't make Iraq any better, and it'll get a bunch more of our guys killed. We need to change course -- not to pull out, but to actually do the job correctly.

Yep, that's the whole point that most of us want to see, that the course is changed. Doing the same thing over and over again obviously hasn't worked. Maybe if we did some actual construction and security and stopped trying to turn the damn place into a money pit for the benefit of our big corporations, the speed of improvement would go faster.

That's why I was saying it doesn't make sense to bang your head against a brick wall, no matter how hard you try, it's just not going to work. Pick up a sledghammer and knock that thing over already.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


Sort of. The real problem is that the Administration has offered absolutely no plan for cleaning up its mess (and no, just staying there isn't such a plan). The problem, then, is that right now Americans are being offered only two choices:

1) Get out
2) Stay the course

If these are the only choices, then they both suck, and of the two getting out is preferable. Neither choice will stabilize Iraq; neither choice will stop its slide into chaos. But getting out will at least get our soldiers our of harm's way.

There is, obviously, a third choice: re-think the war and fight it properly. This is the best choice -- indeed, the only humane choice -- but it's not on the table. Why? Mostly because it would require the chickenhawk administration to admit that they've screwed up (and lied), and they will never, ever do that.

So there's really two questions.

1) What should the US do? (on this we all agree); and
2) What should the US do if the administration is too stupid and pigheaded to do the right thing? (On this we disagree).

Yep.

Ramo listed a list of things that we can do TODAY, that are not being done, I can't remember which thread it's in. Anyone looking at the list wouldn't think the ideas are extraordinary, but they are common sense things that need to be implemented.

The whole handing out contracts to favorites for one needs to be abolished.

[Mr. Harley]

But it's only bribery when it's THERE contracts THEY are handing out. It's ACCESS when it's our contracts WE are handing out. - to miquote a great American.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Az
US must stay in Iraq, to clean it's own mess.

No, we need to be defeated for the good of the world. It would mean another ten+ years of us not shoving smaller countries around.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I believe according to the US Military Code that soldiers are obligated to ignore unlawful orders. Although how many times it happens... ::shrug::

Oh it happens every day, even in basic training. Have you seen Full Metal Jacket? The Drill Instructor orders Joker to bow down to the Virgin Mary. Joker is an atheist and refuses, even after the DI hits him and threatens worse. The DI then promotes Joker to squad leader because he had the guts to refuse an unlawful order in the face of a lot of pressure to do otherwise.

[Dr Strangelove]

What happened after Vietnam? The Warsaw Pact funded guerilla groups in Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America. People around the world began to see the threat posed by red terrorists and their sympathy turned against the Su and its allies. Then the SU got bogged down in Afghanistan. Under the strain the Warsaw Pact fell apart. If we pull out of Iraq, which will probably result in civil war, the people of the Middle East will see more clearly that Islamic extremists are a greater threat to them than the US and Israel are. Only once the peoples of the Middle East are willing to reject the message of Osama and his ilk will the tide in the war on terror be turned.

I suspect that many muslims in the Middel East will be shocked by the stampede at the bridge in Baghdad today.

[MarkG]

wow, google gives 5.7 million results for "Cindy Sheehan"

there is also http://www.meetwithcindy.org/
and of course http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cindy_Sheehan

(btw, why isnt there a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markos_Giannopoulos ??)

[Az]

Because we detest you, and don't want to live any living record of you.

[MarkG]

what, i thought the Party had established a "People's Love For Our Dear Admin Day"!!