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Call To Power 2 Cradle 3+ mod in progress: https://apolyton.net/forum/other-games/call-to-power-2/ctp2-creation/9437883-making-cradle-3-fully-compatible-with-the-apolyton-edition
Az - Nationalist versus Libetarian premise. IMHO - note opinion, I agree with Berz, I see it as an implied contract and the US military is not founded on interventionist policies, and in fact has been presented throughout almost all of it's history (almost for nitpickers) as a defensive force.
I certainly disagree with this. The US military has been presented in the last century, the one that matters, as a much as a force for good as a simple defence force. I think You really have to enjoy an equisite case of selective sight to ignore that facet in the presentation the US military, and thus any implied "moral contract" cannot be called fraudulent.
A Nationalist - my country right or wrong, etc. would totally disagree with us. That attitude is much more common in Israel, and you know how I feel about the results it has achieved there. Sadly, in the US instead of a continuum over that we seem to have developed a very nasty dichotomy - actually that's redundant, that kind of dichotomy when it gets into politics is almost always nasty as there is no center to calm things down so to speak.
The current US system of personal and geopolitical values would've have survived a day in these areas, IMHO ( again, opinion ). It would either died out, or changed drastically, both of which mean that the current american system is unadapted to harsher enviroments. 9/11 is such a perfect example for this. It's the proof to the fact that one of the approaches suffers from a very critical problem: In order to continue to compete in the argument for ethics, it should remain relevant.
I would call it fraud if they died on a battlefield created by lying politicians. Your analysis ignores the fraudulent grounds for the war...
All battlefields are created by politicians, and all politicians are lying, therefore all battlefields are created by lying politicians. This reduces the entire discussion to little chunks. The number of wars that were started by people due to motives that were pure and logical within the borders of their own belief systems is very low, and usually enjoyed the dubious honor of being wars waged by insane fanatics. Not all of them, mind you, but many of them.
Now, I am not some sort of moral relativist moron () but I do think that since most wars were started due to 'dirty' reasons, without discimination over their ethical value , the dwelling over the reasoning of this war is meaningless. Basically, yeah, it was probably started over the wrong reasons - so were most wars. Has little to do with their ethical value, and the "lying politicians" part is only a small part of the inherent wrongness of war.
Reading through this thread I'd have to say, the thing I hate about US political discussions is that everyone tries to scream louder than the others and the real issue gets drowned in a total mess of overlapping sound waves that make no sense anymore. Same as with the Shiavo case or the swiftboat veterans.
I think the only strategy to stay through this is to be (relatively) calm and planning. The rightwing's tactic is what I'd call the bee tactic. Fly around and sting everyone so that nobody has a clear mind any more. It's quite effective, but from a level equal to the prehistorics.
I hope people mature a bit and Sheehan as well, in wars people die, point. The discussion on the legimity of the iraq war should not be based on her grounds, that is not possible to win. She's rather the example to hold before the President, one of the many persons who suffered directly because of his dishonest behavior.
All battlefields are created by politicians, and all politicians are lying, therefore all battlefields are created by lying politicians.
All battlefields are not created by lies. This one was...
This reduces the entire discussion to little chunks. The number of wars that were started by people due to motives that were pure and logical within the borders of their own belief systems is very low, and usually enjoyed the dubious honor of being wars waged by insane fanatics. Not all of them, mind you, but many of them.
You just contradicted yourself. But your argument seems to be: all politicians lie, therefore we are morally obligated to fight for their lies.
Now, I am not some sort of moral relativist moron () but I do think that since most wars were started due to 'dirty' reasons, without discimination over their ethical value , the dwelling over the reasoning of this war is meaningless. Basically, yeah, it was probably started over the wrong reasons - so were most wars. Has little to do with their ethical value, and the "lying politicians" part is only a small part of the inherent wrongness of war.
It isn't meaningless, if you sign up to defend your country and the politicians are sending you to invade other countries based on lies, you no longer have any moral obligation to fulfill that contract.
All battlefields are not created by lies. This one was...
Yeah, I had a problem with this too.
Afghanistan = just war based on defense
Iraq 2 = unjust war based on a lie
As to US presenting itself as a force for good over the past century, well, that one is hit or miss. I think we're batting about 50/50 on that one.
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln
Wars are a policy decision by states. Soldiers are agents of the state, and in the United States they volunterred to serve the Federal Government. Soldiers must follow all legal orders given to them, even if the orders are blatant lies.
The way to deal with politicians who carry out policies whose support amongst the population was built by half-truths, outright lies, and lies of ommission is to boot them out of power.
If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
Alot of people see it as, "oh the rabid lefties (which people on this board have included me in now because I don't like Bush -- if I don't like Bush that MUST make me a rabid leftie) are just using the war to score political points against their enemies."
Did people ever stop and think that maybe some of us dind't support the incumbent in power because (God forbid) what he was doing was wrong??
ZOMG novel concept vote against someone because you disagree with them and not because you are following party lines or artificial left/right/center/upside down idealologies!!!!!
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln
Originally posted by GePap
I have to disagree with Bezerker.
Wars are a policy decision by states. Soldiers are agents of the state, and in the United States they volunterred to serve the Federal Government. Soldiers must follow all legal orders given to them, even if the orders are blatant lies.
Because lying to Congress is so very, very legal...
The cake is NOT a lie. It's so delicious and moist.
The Weighted Companion Cube is cheating on you, that slut.
Because lying to Congress is so very, very legal...
The weak,spinless, and gutless idiots in Congress gave the President a blank slate for Iraq.
He told Congress what Congress wanted to hear.
Which is why most of them should have been booted in '04 as well.
If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
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