The Disengagement Thread

[Sandman]

To Az:

Yes, a mini-war to 'retake' the strip is less destabilising than giving the settlers the opportunity to develop an private army to fight for the strip, and/or giving the Palestinians a chance to drive the settlers out themselves.

[BeBMan]

Az, Henryk Broder, a Jewish journalist living here and writing for the most influential German weekly "Der Spiegel" had an article recently where he exactly said the same - if they want to stay there, they maybe could, but would have to give up Israeli citizenship, and would have to live under Palestinian authority (well obviously), which most of them would not like.

I'm however not sure how serious that was meant, since he usually writes a lot of provocative (but good) stuff....from what I gather from his works he's usually pro-Israel, but has not much sympathies for the settlers, at least not for any kind of extremists among them.

[Az]

Yes, a mini-war to 'retake' the strip is less destabilising than giving the settlers the opportunity to develop an private army to fight for the strip, and/or giving the Palestinians a chance to drive the settlers out themselves.

Well, I don't think so. I actually see nothing destabilizing in the long run about this.

[Sandman]

LoTM: I suppose there's a sense of grudging admiration for the move. Don't expect too much mileage out of it, though.

[Eli]

[q=Az] I actually see nothing destabilizing in the long run about this.[/q]


Of course, all the remaining Jews will be dead. Stable.

[Az]

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Az, Henryk Broder, a Jewish journalist living here and writing for the most influential German weekly "Der Spiegel" had an article recently where he exactly said the same - if they want to stay there, they maybe could, but would have to give up Israeli citizenship, and would have to live under Palestinian authority (well obviously), which most of them would not like.

Actually some of them signed a petition declaring they want an autonomous region, and are willing to lose the Israeli citizenship. They even sent a letter to Annan.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Az

Yes, a mini-war to 'retake' the strip is less destabilising than giving the settlers the opportunity to develop an private army to fight for the strip, and/or giving the Palestinians a chance to drive the settlers out themselves.

Well, I don't think so. I actually see nothing destabilizing in the long run about this.

Right. Nothing destabilising about giving the settlers a chance for a DIY '"transfer"', or the Palestinians a chance to 'drive the settlers into the sea'. Thousands of deaths, potentially.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Az
Actually some of them signed a petition declaring they want an autonomous region, and are willing to lose the Israeli citizenship. They even sent a letter to Annan.

As long as the're not under Palestinian authority? At least so I understand the "autonomous".....maybe wrong.

And hell, why is the forum so slow I come back when it works better....

[Az]

Right. Nothing destabilising about giving the settlers a chance for a DIY '"transfer"', or the Palestinians a chance to 'drive the settlers into the sea'. Thousands of deaths, potentially.

The settlers couldn't even dream of tranferring a population 200 times their size, and the palestinians will stop attempting to drive the settlers into the sea, after a healthy dose of attempts in which they'll eat lead profusely.

[Spiffor]

I'm with LOTM.
If the settlers were left to their own devices (and thus thoroughly killed by the Palestinian guerilla), the Israelis wouldn't stand idle during the slaughter. And war will happen again.

I see nothing wrong with the removal of the settlements. The Army won't have to protect such useless objectives, and will be able to focus on its work in a more subtle way. The disengagement allows Israel to remove its grunts from the territories, a job that the Palestinian forces will take over

[boann]

the trouble is that each side believes the land to be theirs.. given by god.. '

how can you fight against something like that.

the land , the earth really belongs to no one.
it will still be here after we are all dead and gone.
and they will still be fighting over who it belongs to then

they have been fighting about it for longer
than any of us can remember ..
and our fathers fathers and their fathers fathers..

what will it take to make man live next to man without fighting over it... when religion is involved.. the answer is never...

[Az]

If the settlers were left to their own devices (and thus thoroughly killed by the Palestinian guerilla), the Israelis wouldn't stand idle during the slaughter. And war will happen again.

Dude, the "palestinian guerillas" are a bunch of pussies, esp. on the offensive. The settlers, and their sympathizers will include a large number of former regular combat troops, and they won't use their pinky when fighting Hamas, like the regular army. Also, the settlers can secure armaments from the shore. Plus, I bet there will be plenty of volounteers to help the settlers, so they won't be lacking in manpower during their fights.

I see nothing wrong with the removal of the settlements. The Army won't have to protect such useless objectives, and will be able to focus on its work in a more subtle way.

What do you mean by that? IDF isn't in the city in Gaza or Rafah, or Khan Yunis. It's just falling back to behind positions, that will change nothing in the way the frontline is protected - but will leave us with less field intelligence.

The disengagement allows Israel to remove its grunts from the territories, a job that the Palestinian forces will take over

Abu Mazen doesn't have the balls to use his troops - he's afraid to cause a civil war. I am not optimistic.

They need an Altalena - But Abu Mazen doesn't have the balls, apparently.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by boann
the trouble is that each side believes the land to be theirs.. given by god.. '

how can you fight against something like that.
.

And yet Israel IS withdrawing. Pragmatism is certainly the dominant force on the Israeli side. There also seem to be pragmatists on the Pal side - the question (as Az raises it) is whether they will have the nerve to stand up to the fanatics.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az
Dude, the "palestinian guerillas" are a bunch of pussies, esp. on the offensive. The settlers, and their sympathizers will include a large number of former regular combat troops, and they won't use their pinky when fighting Hamas, like the regular army. Also, the settlers can secure armaments from the shore.

Will the settlers have the resources required to buy a fleet of helicopters, fighters and tanks? I doubt it. Failing that, I doubt they'll last long under an open bombing from Hamas' mortars. That is, until the Israeli military arrives.

What do you mean by that? IDF isn't in the city in Gaza or Rafah, or Khan Yunis.

Yes, but it's in the territory of the Gaza strip, and the settlers + soldiers are a useless and diplomatically absurd objective to protect.

It's just falling back to behind positions, that will change nothing in the way the frontline is protected

You won't have to protect a slew of pockets within hostile territory. It's good news.

but will leave us with less field intelligence.

I am wholly unconvinced by the relationship you established between the occupation and the field intelligence. Spies can operate in unoccupied territory.

Abu Mazen doesn't have the balls to use his troops - he's afraid to cause a civil war. I am not optimistic.

This is not what I meant. The fight against the terrorists will be done by Israel. However, the IDF will have no "police" job left in the area. Israel will use its spies and its airpower in Gaza, but there will be no jobs that require Israeli grunts anymore. Unless you believe that an actual war will start from Gaza.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Az

The settlers couldn't even dream of tranferring a population 200 times their size, and the palestinians will stop attempting to drive the settlers into the sea, after a healthy dose of attempts in which they'll eat lead profusely.

If they have help from thousands of volunteers and 'NGOs', they might be able to have a decent crack at it. Especially if they can import weapons, whilst the Palestinian can't.