Tory leadership frontrunner attacks multiculturalism

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit


Ahem, ever heard about islamic conquest of european countries?

Yes.

Ever heard of World Wars One and Two, the Seven Years War, the Franco-Prussian War, the Reconquista, the Balkan Wars, the War of the Spanish Succession, The Russo-Turkish War, The Thirty Years War, the Wars of Religion, et cetera, et cetera.... ?


Note- I said this:

Well so far in Europe Christians have killed more Christians and Muslims than Muslims have killed Christians.

[Datajack Franit]

Ever heard of World Wars One and Two, the Seven Years War, the Franco-Prussian War, the Reconquista, the Balkan Wars, the War of the Spanish Succession, The Russo-Turkish War, The Thirty Years War, the Wars of Religion, et cetera, et cetera.... ?

But these are our roots, no matter what they look like. And we at least admit what is wrong with our societies nowadays, and what WAS wrong in our past. I can't see any trace of this process in Islam, still blaming Christian Europe for the Crusades (as if the arab invasion of Spain, France and the Balcans was any better)

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Been blamed for any crusades recently, DF?

[Datajack Franit]

Just look at Al Qaeda's recent messages, asking the "crusaders" to retreat from Iraq.

But what worries me the most is people actually trying to understand their point of view, coming to the fact that they are partially right, and justifying their discovery by dismantling our society piece by piece, as if caring about our past and our roots is something to be ashamed of. Like allowing in our countries persons that REFUSE to integrate, and these are the results.

Now they're beginning to kill us, and what do we do? We try to understand them, we blame our society not for allowing them in, but for giving them a reason to kill us. Of course it has to be our fault. It's Iraq.

As if WE were to blame if those bastards, grown in a modern, civilized and free country decided to slaughter innocent civilians.

What is our answer to this? The evil Christians, their atrocities during the Crusades, colonialism, Israel, Iraq, let's discuss with moderate Islam, let's get rid of our culture and values while allowing others to use theirs as a shield. And you are all surprised that such things happen in Europe. What's the difference between England and Israel? Priorities.

[Sandman]

Off the top of my head, about half of British 'Muslims' seldom or never go to a mosque. Given enough time, the British Muslim population will probably tend towards the same level of religious attendance as British 'Christians'.

[Odin]

I'm all for Multiculturalism, it is, after all, was one of the things that made the US a great nation. What I am not for, however, is Multiculturalism being used to legitamize barbaric pratices like Sharia, female circumcision, and honor killings.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
But what worries me the most is people actually trying to understand their point of view, coming to the fact that they are partially right, and justifying their discovery by dismantling our society piece by piece, as if caring about our past and our roots is something to be ashamed of.

What are you getting on at?

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
Like allowing in our countries persons that REFUSE to integrate, and these are the results.

So you are asserting that people who don't intergate will commit terrorist acts in an indefinite future? That's simply laughable.

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
Now they're beginning to kill us, and what do we do? We try to understand them, we blame our society not for allowing them in, but for giving them a reason to kill us. Of course it has to be our fault. It's Iraq.

You don't think US and UK foreign policies have something to do with Islams hating them? You don't consider the invasion of Iraq boneheaded, ill-conceived, and completely failed to achieve any of the stated objectives (e.g. BCN weapons, security, etc.)?

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
As if WE were to blame if those bastards, grown in a modern, civilized and free country decided to slaughter innocent civilians.

Lots of people born and grown in Western countries kill innocent people. Try again.

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
What is our answer to this? The evil Christians, their atrocities during the Crusades, colonialism, Israel, Iraq, let's discuss with moderate Islam, let's get rid of our culture and values while allowing others to use theirs as a shield.

You are not even making sense with your bald assertions.

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
And you are all surprised that such things happen in Europe. What's the difference between England and Israel? Priorities.

I don't see Israel is free of terrorist attacks. Not one bit.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit

Like allowing in our countries persons that REFUSE to integrate, and these are the results.

Well European colonizers set such a good example...


Look, it's a matter of time. The United Kingdom as it is today is a remarkable synthesis of large waves of immigrants, from ancient Celts, to northern European Vikings, to Jews, Romans, Africans, Irish, Jews from Tsarist Russia and Poland, people from the Indian sub-continent, Chinese...

Some of the Bengali mosques in Spitalfields and Brick Lane are housed in what used to be synagogues. Before that they were French Protestant Huguenot churches. South Wales has a blended community of descendants of Somalian sailors, the north east of England has descendants of Yemeni sailors, London Manchester and Liverpool Chinatowns and large mixed race communities.

I have Muslim friends who don't wear the veil, or the jilbab or hijab- a Sikh friend who doesn't have a turban, or a beard, and so on.

But what I don't look forward to is some artificial 'British' identity that people are meant to conform to and that ignores the contributions of immigrants and children of immigrants- like me.


Somalis in Wales:

....Cardiff has the largest British-born Somali population in the UK. They were originally drawn to Cardiff as seamen at the end of the 19th century, shortly after the opening of the Suez canal, to work in the thriving docks. These young men came as sailors, not as refugees or slaves, driven by the desire to earn money to buy more livestock back in Somalia. Some of them settled down and married local women, whilst others returned home periodically to visit their families, living in boarding houses during their time onshore. The boarding houses were run by Somalis and provided the visiting sailors with the familiarity of shared language and customs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/wales/w_se/article_2.shtml

Yemenis in South Shields:

The Yemeni had left their own country to seek work on British ships that passed through the colony of Aden.

For many, their journey eventually led them to North East England.

Early Settlers

Once ashore in South Shields, the Yemeni often had trouble finding accommodation due to racial discrimination.


Local Yemeni residents were proud of their traditions
As a result, Ali Said opened the first Arab Seaman's Boarding House in August 1909 in the Holborn riverside district of South Shields.

The Yemeni community generally kept to themselves but the First World War was to change all that.

Manpower shortages in the navy led the government to encourage Yemeni men into the country. By the end of the war the Yemeni community in South Shields numbered 3,000.

Liverpool's Chinatown, oldest in Europe:

[QUOTE]Gregory Lee, Professor of Chinese at the University of Lyon, returns to his native Liverpool, where his grandfather arrived from China in 1911, to tell a personal history of the earliest Chinese settlement in Europe. Today a gleaming traditional Chinese arch welcomes people to Liverpool's Chinatown but this overshadows darker stories of fear, exploitation and invisibility.

In Anfield cemetery, Lee finds the graves of the Chinese who dug the trenches in the First World War. He recounts how, after serving Britain in the Second World War, Chinese sailors were deported, and how such suspicion persists today in attitudes to Chinese cockle pickers.

He exchanges stories with Joe Phillips, son of a Chinese sailor and a Liverpudlian woman who, after ignoring it for years, has come to appreciate and explore his Chinese heritage. [QUOTE]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/feature2/pip/t584s/

Welcome to Manchester, D.F. :

[Cort Haus]

I was amongst the millions that marched in London against the war in Iraq. In fact I may have opposed more foreign-policy adventures than many of those who today seem half-hearted in their oppostion to these attacks and the vile politics behind them.

Standing up to the ideology of terrorists is not the same as approving all the actions of Western governments.

The point I think DF is making is that whilst we may approve or disapprove of our own western governments, we mustn't pretend that theocratic fascism might be a reasonable alternative to secular democracy. This is what is meant by 'defending our culture'.

[Cort Haus]

But what I don't look forward to is some artificial 'British' identity that people are meant to conform to and that ignores the contributions of immigrants and children of immigrants- like me.

A shared identity need not include Daily Mail style guff about Queen and Flag, but a statement of our secular, open, democratic, rational, scientific, free and equal values.

Q : Who said anything about ignoring contibutions of immigrants?

I'm Mongrel English - with French, Welsh, Scottish and central European ancestry in the last two or thee generations. I love my country because this is allowed, because of its rich history of people coming here to be free.

You are right to say that in time, integration can happen anyway, but only among people who accept the spirit of tolerance. People who want to kill and threaten us to establish a racist, sexist, freedom-hating National Socialist style theocratic hell should be a concern to all other ethnicities in Britain.

I don't believe in violently imposing our system on other cultures, so I think it reasonable to insist that other cultures don't violently impose their system on us.

[Az]

Cort Haus

'cept that last sentence. I don't support violently imposing, but I certainly support hard pressure.

[Datajack Franit]

So you are asserting that people who don't intergate will commit terrorist acts in an indefinite future? That's simply laughable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/23/npoll23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/23/ixnewstop.html

The group portrait of British Muslims painted by YouGov's survey for The Daily Telegraph is at once reassuring and disturbing, in some ways even alarming. The vast majority of British Muslims condemn the London bombings but a substantial minority are clearly alienated from modern British society and some are prepared to justify terrorist acts. The divisions within the Muslim community go deep. Muslims are divided over the morality of the London bombings, over the extent of their loyalty to this country and over how Muslims should respond to recent events. Most Muslims are evidently moderate and law-abiding but by no means all are. YouGov sought to gauge the character of the Muslim community's response to the events of July 7. As the figures in the chart show, 88 per cent of British Muslims clearly have no intention of trying to justify the bus and Tube murders. However, six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified. Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals who, if not prepared to carry out terrorist acts, are ready to support those who do. Moreover, the proportion of YouGov's respondents who, while not condoning the London attacks, have some sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried them out is considerably larger - 24 per cent. A substantial majority, 56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way. YouGov also asked whether or not its Muslim respondents agreed or disagreed with Tony Blair's description of the ideas and ideology of the London bombers as "perverted and poisonous". Again, while a large majority, 58 per cent, agree with him, a substantial minority, 26 per cent, are reluctant to be so dismissive. The responses indicate that Muslim men are more likely than Muslim women to be alienated from the mainstream and that the young are more likely to be similarly alienated than the old. However, there are few signs in YouGov's findings that Muslims of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin are any more disaffected than their co-religionists from elsewhere. The sheer scale of Muslim alienation from British society that the survey reveals is remarkable. Although a large majority of British Muslims are more than content to make their home in this country, a significant minority are not.

Yeah right. Laughable.

You don't think US and UK foreign policies have something to do with Islams hating them? You don't consider the invasion of Iraq boneheaded, ill-conceived, and completely failed to achieve any of the stated objectives (e.g. BCN weapons, security, etc.)?

Answer to my question. Did islamic terrorism begin in the moment right after US invasion of Iraq? No way. You may object the reasons for Iraq war, but 9-11 happened before any kind of US aggression to muslim world. And plans of terrorism acts in Europe performed by islamic groups have been around for the last 10 years. What about this

http://www.voltairenetwork.net/article84.html#nh4

Actually, antiterrorist law does not seek to establish guilt regarding crimes committed but to prove that certain Muslim radical groups intend to commit these crimes and that’s why it operates in such a capricious and unconvincing way. That’s the way it was in the case of the “Frankfurt” group, who was accused by the German law of having planned an attack against the cathedral of Strasbourg in December 2000, although the group did not carry it out.

I don't see Israel is free of terrorist attacks. Not one bit.

Maybe you should read again my post.

[Cort Haus]

Thanks, Az.

Yes, we agree on much, but not on regime-change - and perhaps that subject is OT to this thread. I'll just say here that IMHO :

1. Democracy works best when home-grown.
2. Handing Iraq to Iran wasn't a good move.

[Datajack Franit]

Look, it's a matter of time. The United Kingdom as it is today is a remarkable synthesis of large waves of immigrants, from ancient Celts, to northern European Vikings, to Jews, Romans, Africans, Irish, Jews from Tsarist Russia and Poland, people from the Indian sub-continent, Chinese...

I am not complaining about multi-culturalism! Myself I am foreign born in my own country. My family is as well. Neither are any of the ethnic groups you posted. Hosting various cultures don't pose a threat to security in a democratic nation. The problems begin when you have one of these groups supporting, actively or not, terrorism acts against others.

[Bereta_Eder]

where're you from datajacky?