Tory leadership frontrunner attacks multiculturalism

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sandman
Am I the only one that thinks that Telegraph article is utter cack?

Nope. Although the Torygraph rarely raises my blood pressure as much as the Mail.


I wish I were a pig farmer, I'd have a fit and proper use for the Mail then.

[Sandman]

Oh, and I'd like to express my opposition to the word 'islamofascism'. If we can't understand what we're dealing with (and it isn't fascism) then there's little chance of beating it.

[Datajack Franit]

Then let's hear your opinion- if you have one

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sandman
Oh, and I'd like to express my opposition to the word 'islamofascism'. If we can't understand what we're dealing with (and it isn't fascism) then there's little chance of beating it.

Didn't Christopher Hitchens coin it ?

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
Then let's hear your opinion- if you have one

Quietly nudge religion from state schools. Possibly try a wee bit more of an assimilationist immigration policy, but don't scream about it from the rooftops.

And no more authoritarian crap.

As for Islam-O-Fascism, I'd always assumed it was an American word, because of the central 'O'.

[Cort Haus]

A key link-man between the Nazis and the Islamists is Haj Amin el-Husseini, aka the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, mentor of Yasser Arafat and hero of the PLO.

Research this guy to understand the historical links between the Nazis and the Islamists.

It was not only Heinrich Himmler who waxed lyrical about the "ideological closeness" of National Socialism and Islam, coining the concept of Muselgermanen ("Muslimo-Germans").16 Haj Amin el-Husseini, too, referred to the parallels between Muslim and German ideals, identifying the following points of contact: (1) monotheism - unity of leadership; (2) the ordering power - obedience and discipline; (3) the struggle and the honor of falling in battle; (4) community; (5) family and offspring; (6) glorification of work and creativity; and (7) attitude toward the Jews - "in the struggle against Jewry, Islam and National Socialism come very close to one another."

http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/artikel.php?artikelID=86

[Datajack Franit]

Quietly nudge religion from state schools. Possibly try a wee bit more of an assimilationist immigration policy, but don't scream about it from the rooftops.

What do you think Europe has been doing for the last 50 years? The only thing we achieved was spreading atheism and having muslims asking islamic schools for their children- and getting them

As for Islam-O-Fascism, I'd always assumed it was an American word, because of the central 'O'.

That's a joint word

[Whaleboy]

whaleboy, when someone asks you if it's more dangerous to cross a road from where you're standing or at the crossing 20 yards up the road, what do you say to them? do you tell them that you can't compare the two because of the inherent dangers of crossing the road and then proceed to talk about how the road was 500 years ago. or do you give them a simple answer to a simple question.

Nice attempt to fudge the question (again). I fail to see how determining which religion is more dangerous than another is like crossing a road which is self-evident. The only way to make your argument (that Islam is more dangerous) is to narrow it down to "in the UK", which is debatable, in London, on 7/7, on the number 30 bus etc etc. But then of course, it loses all meaning.

Makes far more sense to distinguish between mainstream peaceful Islam and the percentage of fundamentalist ****** who should be strung up by their testicles with cheesewire. That is common sense. What you are suggesting is stupidity. There's a difference, believe it or not.

likewise it (should at least...) go without saying that ordinary muslims are different from the muslims who carry out bombings. but they are, at the end of the day, still all muslims and have in common the islamic faith.

But again, trying to link fundamentalist Islam with mainstream Islam in respect to terrorism would be like linking Ann Frank to Hitler on the grounds that they both breathed oxygen. It is true that fundies and proper Muslims both read the Koran, but if you seek to link the two (in other words tar the latter with the former brush), it's a proposition that has absolutely no meaning, other than ad hominem.

For example, I remember after 7/7, Jon Snow on channel 4 news was interviewing this guy who used to head Al Mujaharoon (sp?), a Jamaican immigrant who converted to Islam. He refused to condemn his fellow Muslims whatever the circumstances, and when confronted by Snow and a moderate Muslim journalist in the studio, he suggested that the latter wasn't an observant Muslim... the logic went like this:

(1) I refuse to denounce any Muslim, regardless of their actions
(2) An observant Muslim would concur with my beliefs
(3) This Muslim (moderate) would act against you and your beliefs
(4) The Muslim (moderate) is therefore not an observant Muslim

You see how he redefined "Muslim" to seek his own purposes. In that regard, he is reducing the concept of "Muslim" to mean "terrorist" or of a certain opinion that he espoused. To do that has no logical value at all, except to cause offense to moderate Muslims. Your logic is parallel to this, but in reverse, since you are attempting to expand the term "fundamentalist", or "terrorist", or "extremist" or whatever to equate to "Muslim".

You would have to show why being a Muslim necessarily and leads to fundamentalism and where Islam prescribes terrorism. I'm sure the majority of peaceful Muslims in this country, and the vast majority of older peaceful Muslims would have something to say about that.

You appeals to simplicity and one-dimensional "fisher price" logic cut absolutely no ice. The points being made against you by myself and others pwn your arguments thus far, if you wish to defend them I suggest you engage with the counters and not run crying to mummy because "daddy's using long words".

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
What do you think Europe has been doing for the last 50 years? The only thing we achieved was spreading atheism and having muslims asking islamic schools for their children- and getting them.

Phasing out religion in state schools means that Islamic schools won't happen. Simple.

Spreading atheism is not a bad thing.

As for the Islamic-Nazi 'link', you'll also find plenty of cooperation between the Nazis and the Soviets. And the Islamists and the Americans. And other unlikely combinations.

No doubt when the USSR was fighting in Afghanistan, they portrayed their enemy as 'Islamocapitalists'.

[Whaleboy]

Sandman

[Az]

The fact that western governments do not always live up to these ideals is no proof of the bankruptcy of the ideals, just failings of governments.

There was a strong call for a politics which asserted these core western values anyway - even without terrorism to focus our minds. Science and Reason have lost much of the respect they deserve, and such examples as creationism are there to be opposed.

Hence the need for debate on what our values are. I hope we in the West can agree that Islamofascism is not compatible with our values, or does Molly disagree?

The fact that our governments **** up and fail before religionist isn't prove of the failure or hipocricy of the system, but of the fact that it isn't perfect, and we should fight on striving to improve it.

Amongst others that all Muslims are not alike; that all Muslim immigrants do not espouse the values of the suicide bombers; that media denigration of immigrants is a constant and despicable element of British culture and political life; that violence can spring from any source, political, secular, sectarian, immigrant or homegrown.

But those muslims aren't the problem. They're not a case for multiculturalism, since they've assimilated into the values of western society. People who are nominally muslim but are western in their values have never bothered those that oppose multiculturalism while hating racism, such as me, Datajack, Cort Haus, and many others ( and our ranks are growing) - It's those who want to live in a bubble, a ghetto of darkness. We have those around here too.

[C0ckney]

i've just got in from work, so i'll have to do a more detailed explanation of why you're wrong another time but for now a couple of things, including this little gem.

Originally posted by Whaleboy Nice attempt to fudge the question (again).

...trying to link fundamentalist Islam with mainstream Islam in respect to terrorism would be like linking Ann Frank to Hitler on the grounds that they both breathed oxygen.

sorry what was that about fudging the argument?

also the point being made (and so well missed ) with the 'crossing the road' is that you (and YOU positively make it into an art from) can complicate the most simple and straightforward thing with verbose, pseudo-intellectual rubbish. bovis stercus, spucatum tauri is still bull**** at the end of the day.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Sandman

Phasing out religion in state schools means that Islamic schools won't happen. Simple.

Talk me through your logic, because I think the phasing out of RE in state schools would spark a rise in the number of private religious schools of all denominations.

[Sandman]

Sorry, I meant Islamic state schools. As for private Islamic schools, well, just do away with the tax fiddles that private schools get and you'll minimise their proliferation.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You don't think US and UK foreign policies have something to do with Islams hating them? You don't consider the invasion of Iraq boneheaded, ill-conceived, and completely failed to achieve any of the stated objectives (e.g. BCN weapons, security, etc.)?

Please explain Canada being high up the list of targets.