So I was told I'm a Republican...

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Japher


I think that is where Franky's drinking buddy got off track and didn't differentiate between Repub/Dem and Conservative/Liberal. Me, I'm more like McCain. I like the idea of laissez-faire, but not to an extent that I would be called a Libertarian... at that I would get offended.

IMO, Franky may be more "middle of the road" on his economic views, but IMO he is more left leaning. The one that generally draws one out is their stance on the idea of a flat tax.

Thanks, this makes me feel better.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Az
I am more worried about your replies to other questions.

You've answered correctly, don't listen to anyone else.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their demand.

both parts are important in the equation of social justice.

Exactly. I know my friend was just trying to make trouble to me and knew what button to push to get me to start talking.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Your just jealous and greedy. Just say it and be done with it. No need to hide it behind convoluted political doublespeak.

the system is made to benefit the privileged

they get in less trouble, they get more stuff, their children are better off, success is easier for them to get, it is easier for them to get perks, it is easier for them to be healthy

I could go on

JM
(And if you say it is becuase they are better then me, or people I know who are not privileged, then you are not worth talking to)

[Dis]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


the system is made to benefit the privileged

they get in less trouble, they get more stuff, their children are better off, success is easier for them to get, it is easier for them to get perks, it is easier for them to be healthy

I could go on

JM
(And if you say it is becuase they are better then me, or people I know who are not privileged, then you are not worth talking to)

they are better than you.

What you say is true to a large extent. But contrary to popular belief, not all hope is lost for poor people. I grew up fairly poor. Yet today I do not consider myself poor (more like lower middle class). I could make more money if I had the motivation (mostly I don't like dealing with the stress).

This increase is important, as I have accumulated wealth. I own a home, and have money in the stock market. If I had kids I could pass this off to them, the could take these assets and build more assets, and their kids do the same and so on.

Of course, if I had stupid kids they would lose all this wealth. But what this shows is if you have intelligences and/or skills, you can break the cycle. Though I should note I'm white. I'm not sure if a black man could do the same thing I could. Sadly, racism is not completely dead in america.

and Yes, I'm saying I'm reasonably intelligent. Such arrogance and ego, I know. But I felt this is what helped me escape the plagues of the poor society I grew up with. I grew up in a culture of drugs and bad rock music. But I made it through alive.

[Patroklos]

(And if you say it is becuase they are better then me, or people I know who are not privileged, then you are not worth talking to)

Don't go projecting your lack of self confindence on me, I siad nothing of the sort.

Of course there are benefits to being rich, that is the reason people try to accumulate money. And once again, the notion that because you have money you don't work hard is niave. Yeah there are trust fund babies out there, but they are hardly the majority (I would say single percents) and even that doesn't mean they don't put in 12 hour days keeping Firestone from falling apart.

Again, you are jealous and want something you did nothing to earn. Just say it and be done. Communits have no problem with it.

[Patroklos]

I grew up fairly poor. Yet today I do not consider myself poor (more like lower middle class).

Congratulations Dis! In recognition of your will to self improve and make something of your life you now get taxed for being successful.

[Omni Rex Draconis]

Patroklos:
there is no rational for the rich to pay more other than greed

The last thing we need to worry about is taking away incentives to become rich.

As long as it is possible to become rich (bad communism, bad!), and money still means something, people will want to become rich.

On the other hand, I believe that we have reached the stage in human evolution to provide all the basics of life - free of charge.

Air, food, water, and waste disposal. Appropriate shelter for climate, privacy, and security. A system of government and law that works. A practical basic level of medical service. Communication, minimal power, and access to basic education. All paid for.

Everything else, and I do mean EVERYTHING, is defined as a non-essential service and therefore best served by a free market. Government is by its very nature is inefficient; with no competition (you can't even vote for the bureacracy), there is no incentive to improve or check corruption.

Everyone who makes a dollar should pay a tax. It is the percentage of total dollars required to pay for our essential services. The poor longer need to suffer the greater proportion of fixed expenses - those are covered by the state. The "rich", no matter how they are defined, never lose by moving upwards. They paid a 25% tax on their first dollar, and they will pay 25% of their last.

There is the danger of the hippie movement, the culture of free, that will take up a lifestyle completely free of dollar bills. I think that living in an unadorned 5'x10' apartment has to be beyond most people's tolerance, however. And we could support a great many tree huggers (god bless 'em).

I will leave it the economists here to figure out a suitable measure of increasing wealth and how to apply it.

So, Patroklos, is that rational? And more to the point of the thread, does this make me a Republican?

[Dis]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Congratulations Dis! In recognition of your will to self improve and make something of your life you now get taxed for being successful.

you see, this is why I'm a centrist. People on the right think we are over taxed, people on the left want something for nothing (though I wouldn't mind that either )

I'm not overly taxed. I didn't say I was upper middle class. Only at that point do you start getting into the higher tax brackets.

[Jon Miller]

if you took a way quality public education I could not be here today

I went to public school for 8 years precollege (some private, some homeschooled)

and relied on scholarships/grants/loans (+ my own work) for college (private)

and now have worked in gradschool (but work which was supported by the government) (not completed gradschool yet...)

so while I expect to be 'more succesful' then most my peers (people who I went to school with, etc), I couldn't have done what I have done so far without 'quality public education'

and if my first 8 years had been up to snuff (my highschool was crappy), I could have done a lot better (and faster)

JM

[Patroklos]

Who said anything about taking away public education?

I am not arguing about what we spend it on (another thead perhaps) but who pays for it.

Did the rich kids at your public school somehow use more education than you?

They don't even use public health care where it exists but somehow they should pay a greater share into it than those who do?

It is ass backwards no matter how you look at it. You think the rich owe you something and they do not. Simply taxing things because they are there is not good enough.

[Jon Miller]

the rich kids went to private school

where they got help getting good sat scores

and got good AP classes, and other college prep (I managed to talk my way into a nearby community college, so it wasn't all bad, but it took some ammount of work)

got decent teachers, etc

Jon Miller

[Patroklos]

the rich kids went to private school

There were absolutley no rich kids at your public school?

If this is the case (and it wans't) then you are the extreme exception.

And while you were enjoying your free education, how many poor students did you see squander the opportunity for no reason other than their own free choice?

In any event if they did go to private schools they are just using their wealth to better themselves like anyone else should. How dare they those evil bastards!

[Omni Rex Draconis]

With all respect due when talking about somebody else's education system, do Americans not have inner urban schools which are completely funded only by the local constituents?

If so, then it is my guess that are many such cases and no extreme. Rich parents would move.

[Jon Miller]

few well off kids

and the well off kids did do better on average

but my community was pretty poor

I don't think that there was anyone truly rich (a few people whose parents combined made ~100+k)

I am fine with private schools, because frankly sometimes public ones are failures

I think that you should be able to get government assistance for private school if the nearby public ones are failures (and governments have numbers on the schools, and a lot are known to be failures/troubled)

a lot of the students wanted to do what their fathers did

which was work in the mill, or the like

but the mills were closed, so they ended up working in a gas station or the like

which isn't going anywhere, and a lot of them turned to drugs

this is true in a lot of communities where the schools are in trouble, and the students are in trouble...

I just think that there should be good public education (Better then was available to me), if some wealthy parent wants to hire a private tutor or send their child to private school that is fine wit hme

but the level of education should not be noticeably different

a fair number of any class of student squanders their opportunities in education

it is just if they are wealthy or poor they get different results

I know people who couldn't do college, and so were gas station attendents and the like (who were poor)

I know people who were freshman for years, as well as tried art school and other such things

but will do fine, since they will take over their parents business in a few years..

a lot of people in my college had parents who were millionaires... they could screw arround and it would really matter much in the long run

JM

[Patroklos]

But no matter how easy the rich kids might have had it, it is no excuse for someone else not to succeed.

So the mill closed, life sucks, hit the books and get a scholarship to the community college.

Nobody said it was easy, but I don't care where you live everyone has the basics they need for a good education if they put in the effort, and it is free.

Sounds like some people resent the fact that they had to work harder for their peice of the pie than others. I happen to be happy it turned out that way for me.