"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents"

[Alexander's Horse]

yeah well your really out of step with most historians there.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
yeah well your really out of step with most historians there.

And which ones would those be, pray tell ?

So the Nazis sponsored the Kristallnacht pogrom in an uncharacteristically undisciplined hysterical fit of pique, and then after a Nuremberg Rally or two and some bracing cups of tea, regained their cool disciplined composure and set about the highly logical and disciplined Final Solution- promulgated by those scions of suburban normality, Himmler and Hitler.

Heartfield has also added at the bottom of this piece a witty note stating that Goering's face is from an actual photograph and has not been retouched. Dressing Goering as a butcher, not only places blame on him and the Nazi's for many violent and bloody acts, but also belittles Goering to the status of an average working man, simply following Hitler's orders.

http://www.hatii.arts.gla.ac.uk/MultimediaStudentProjects/00-01/9703021w/mmcourse/project/html/Other%20Bits/index_of_illustrations.htm

[Alexander's Horse]

just forget it, I couldn't be arsed leading you through the historiography of nazism to which Agathon was referring - read up yourself.

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Then site it with regard to police in some fashion other than an article about high speed pursuits in North America that use Rodney King as an argument.

Did they seriously never bother to teach you about this in school? Did you grow up in Kansas or something, where such evolution-oriented topics were frowned upon?

Just do a simple Wikipedia search:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_or_flight

Sorry, no references to fleeing fron the police in there, instead it requires actual thinking and interpretation from the reader to apply the topic to specific situations. However, take the following line: "An abundance of catecholamines at neuroreceptor sites facilitates reliance on spontaneous or intuitive behaviors often related to combat or escape."

Now I know there's lots of long scientific words there, but basically a bunch of chemicals get released that results in the subject making snap decions to get out of a scary situation.

Let us know if you need basic biological concepts explained to you again.

[lord of the mark]

well now we have a thread to point to next time someone asks if Godwins law is a mistake

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
just forget it, I couldn't be arsed leading you through the historiography of nazism to which Agathon was referring - read up yourself.

Yes, because clearly I know much less about it then either he or you do.


Which one of the three of us has provided support for their points ?

Nazis tended to be disciplined and cold tempered people...

Convinced that his own General Staff was weak and indecisive, if not openly treacherous, Hitler became more prone to outbursts of blind, hysterical fury towards his generals, when he did not retreat into bouts of misanthropic brooding. His health, too, deteriorated under the impact of the drugs prescribed by his quack physician, Dr. Theodor Morell.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler.html

The American journalist William Shirer, sitting in the balcony directly above the German Chancellor, thought Hitler "in the worst state of excitement I’ve ever seen him in" (Kershaw, 2000). But Hitler’s speech was "a psychological masterpiece" according to Goebbels.

http://stevenlehrer.com/sportpalast.htm

Americans usually heard Hitler through speech excerpts, which offered literal translations, but did little to convey the drama and hysteria unfolding in Germany. This broadcast, from the Nuremberg Rally of September 12, 1938, was among the first to present Nazi Germany in full frenzy.

http://www.umkc.edu/lib/spec-col/ww2/WarNews/voices.htm

The notorious Nuremberg rallies were not political rallies of the kind that occur in the West today but cunningly stage-managed theatre of the kind, for example, that formed an integral component of Greek religious festivals. Everything - the colours of the uniforms and flags, the placement of the spectators, the nocturnal hour, the use of spotlights and floodlights, the sense of timing - was precisely calculated. The film-clips depict people intoxicating themselves, chanting themselves into a state of rapture and ecstasy using the mantra 'Sieg Heil!' and doting on the Führer as if he were a deity. The faces of the crowd are stamped with a mindless beatitude… It is not a question of persuasive rhetoric. In fact, Hitler's rhetoric is quite unpersuasive. More often than not, it is banal, childish, repetitious, devoid of substance. But his delivery has a venomous energy, a rhythmic pulse to it as hypnotic as a drumbeat; and this, combined with the contagion of mass emotion, with the pressure of thousands of people packed together in a confined area… produces a mass hysteria… What one witnesses at Hitler's rallies is an 'alteration of consciousness' such as psychologists generally associate with a mystical experience.

Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln

The Messianic Legacy, Corgi Books, London, 1991


Are 'blind hysterical fury' 'frenzy' and 'worst state of excitement' alternatives to 'cold tempered' and 'disciplined' ?



I think not.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Yes, because clearly I know much less about it then either he or you do.

Almost certainly true but I have to do my Korean homework is the real reason.

I'll give you a hint - for the most part you're looking at the wrong period and then mixing different things up.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


Almost certainly true but I have to do my Korean homework is the real reason.

I'll give you a hint - for the most part you're looking at the wrong period and then mixing different things up.

Yeah right.

I'm responding to his assertion:

Actually in truth the Nazis tended to be disciplined and cold tempered people...

Which so far hasn't been supported by accounts of mass hysteria, paranoia, frenzy and rage.

Perhaps he's confusing the Nazis with, say, Quakers or Zen Buddhist monks.


I'll give you a hint- I do know quite a bit about the development of the Nazi Party and its origins. I've even met someone who was at one of the Nuremberg rallies.

But I'm keeping you from your homework.

[MOBIUS]

Yet again the forum descends into childish name calling - shouldn't someone have been banned already, I heard you can get banned on this forum just for calling someone 'clueless'...

Can we stick to the subject instead of some **** chucking his toys out of his pram and the rest making fun of him for doing so and winding him up further, which was actually funny but beside the point...

As I said before the police ****ed up. From the moment they started tailing the wrong person from the wrong flat (right building ), allowed him to board a bus (a known suicide target ), failed to prevent him from escaping into the tube and then wrestled him to the ground on a tube train pumping 8 bullets, 7 into his head

They ****ed up, plain and simple. Anyone who is happy with their conduct - that it is OK that an innocent man got his head blown off like this frankly needs their own head examined!

The guy is just as dead, whether it was at the hands of terrorists or the police!

If we start condoning these acts then we do start down that slippery slope of totalitarian police statehood - just like them Nazis that NYE doesn't wish to be associated with...

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by molly bloom

I'll give you a hint- I do know quite a bit about the development of the Nazi Party and its origins. I've even met someone who was at one of the Nuremberg rallies.

ah - that explains why you're in the wrong period and seeing frenzy where there is coldbloodedness.

[C0ckney]

yay histrionics

and btw horse, that's some top class trolling you've been doing here but don't you worry about the people who actually believe the stuff you write :/

edit: i need to learn to write.

[lord of the mark]

1. Lets be clear - saying the police were not wrong, does NOT mean the Brazilian fellow WAS wrong, or deserved death. Its possible that his actions were excusable, and understandable, but that, given the circumstances, the police had to act as they did.

2. We dont know all the details. Thats why this needs to be investigated - and that investigation has been promised from the beginning, IIRC.

3. It IS a difficult situation for the police, who MUST make instant decisions, with little information, and could cause loss of innocent life EITHER way.

4. Shooting to kill has been adopted in western democracies in numerous instances, I think, in particular situations of grave risk. Someone will have to google it.

5. The Nazis did not originate through a slippery slope from harsh police measures (just as Communism has no where resulted from a slippery slope from the welfare state, pace Hayek) They originated through a more or less open power grab, there approaches and motives out in the open.

[C0ckney]

i'm outraged that lotm has ruined this thread with a good post!

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by C0ckney

and btw horse, that's some top class trolling you've been doing here

Thanks - I thought the minimal casualties thing didn't work very well and it got a bit too toxic with nye towards the end there so I pulled it back. But Molly has been rising to the fly nicely on this page. He'll be putting his quals online if this keeps up.

It was better when Agathon was here so we could get that incredibly annoying left wing voice of reason/conscience of the nation thing going.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
1. Lets be clear - saying the police were not wrong, does NOT mean the Brazilian fellow WAS wrong, or deserved death. Its possible that his actions were excusable, and understandable, but that, given the circumstances, the police had to act as they did.

2. We dont know all the details. Thats why this needs to be investigated - and that investigation has been promised from the beginning, IIRC.

3. It IS a difficult situation for the police, who MUST make instant decisions, with little information, and could cause loss of innocent life EITHER way.

4. Shooting to kill has been adopted in western democracies in numerous instances, I think, in particular situations of grave risk. Someone will have to google it.

5. The Nazis did not originate through a slippery slope from harsh police measures (just as Communism has no where resulted from a slippery slope from the welfare state, pace Hayek) They originated through a more or less open power grab, there approaches and motives out in the open.

We know enough details such as they followed a suspect from the communal entrance of a block of flats - why did they not have the suspect flat itself under surveillance to make sure they got the right man!!?

Just because he was dark skinned and wearing a coat (on a day that was cool weather for a Brazilian), they assumed he was their suspect! This seems like the most elementary of errors to me!

Then they actually let a suspected suicide bomber board a bus - what if that bus was going to be his target!!? Another mistake!

Then they allowed him to escape at the entrance of the tube into it! Another mistake!

Then when they did corner him they blew him away with not one or two shots to the head but 8!

The police were clearly out of control of the situation - they ****ed it up from start to finish and there are enough reports to back this up already!

No one will know for sure why he ran, as apparently his visa was OK - that was his fatal mistake!

However it was the tactical errors of the police that allowed him to get into a situation where they felt that they had no option but to use lethal force - in case he actually was a suicide bomber!