"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents"

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by MOBIUS


"We know enough details such as they followed a suspect from the communal entrance of a block of flats - why did they not have the suspect flat itself under surveillance to make sure they got the right man!!?"


Maybe there was no way to discretely surveil the flat? We dont know that.

"Just because he was dark skinned and wearing a coat (on a day that was cool weather for a Brazilian), they assumed he was their suspect! This seems like the most elementary of errors to me!"

Do we know they assumed he was THE suspect? Did they pull all surveillance off the building when he left? Or did they just assume that because he left the building, may have had some resemblence to whom they were looking for, and was wearing a coat on a warm day, (cool for a Brazilian - but they DIDNT know, or have any reason to think, he was Brazilian - you fault the police for not knowing things they couldnt know, but dont fault the Brazilian for, say, not knowing that wearing a coat in warm weather is a mark of a suicide bomber) he was someone they should follow?


"Then they actually let a suspected suicide bomber board a bus - what if that bus was going to be his target!!? Another mistake!"

Apparently they were following him to see where he would go, to get info - its not clear how fast he got on the bus, or if there was a chance to stop him as he got on.

"Then they allowed him to escape at the entrance of the tube into it! Another mistake!"

They called on him to stop - would you have had them shoot first, and not call on him to stop? After calling on him to stop, would you have had them shoot him from a distance, in the middle of a crowd?

"Then when they did corner him they blew him away with not one or two shots to the head but 8!"

Why they shot so many times will be investigated. My assumption is that it happened fast, and they didnt know in the moment which shots had hit, or if he was still a threat. Recall that suicide bombers sometimes manage to explode even after being hit.

"The police were clearly out of control of the situation - they ****ed it up from start to finish and there are enough reports to back this up already!"


On the contrary, much of your criticism is that they were TOO in control - they refrained from shooting him before he got on the bus, before he ran into the tube etc. While I see questions that need to be clarified, i see no evidence at this point that the police were "out of control"

"No one will know for sure why he ran, as apparently his visa was OK - that was his fatal mistake!"

What needs to be investigated is why the police acted as they did, not why the Brazilian acted as he did.


"However it was the tactical errors of the police that allowed him to get into a situation where they felt that they had no option but to use lethal force - in case he actually was a suicide bomber!"

You are correct that there are three possible outcomes 1. The police did nothing wrong 2. The police commited an act of brutality 3. The police made tactical errors, but commited no act of brutality

at this point all three remain possibilities.

[dannubis]

mobius

[Patroklos]

What is the difference between how you treat a suicide bomber and say a sniper?

I would imagine the suicide part.

Aggie using "flight or fight" as a serious defense, priceless.

[Gibsie]

I think the most pertinent point for those that still refuse to fault the police here is the simple fact that had this guy been a genuine suicide bomber who had intended to blow himself up and kill many innocent people, he managed to get to the target despite the police's "best" current efforts- he would have been successful!

Yet people still applaud the police! What's the phrase, shooting the stableboy after the horse has bolted?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Gibsie
I think the most pertinent point for those that still refuse to fault the police here is the simple fact that had this guy been a genuine suicide bomber who had intended to blow himself up and kill many innocent people, he managed to get to the target despite the police's "best" current efforts- he would have been successful!

Yet people still applaud the police! What's the phrase, shooting the stableboy after the horse has bolted?

The police all around the world face difficult tasks, due to the nature of suicide bombings. Israel hasnt been able to stop them completely. Do we want to look at all the police in the UK have done - they have quickly seized a bomb making factor in Leeds, arrested several suspects, and apparently just found a cache of explosives. The investigation is moving very quickly. The good guys are up against some really hard problems. Any approach will mean mistakes sometimes, whether mistakes of commission or ommission. I ask only that we withhold judgement until we have more facts.

[Bereta_Eder]

Safety can come from not screwing ritually other countries, be that for oil or whatever else.
There would again be terrorism if there wasn't the screwing. There's no doubt about that. But it would be contained and only a miniscule of what it is today. Much harder to recruit for it and with solid backing from all democratic governments to fight it (after of course everyone actually helped for them to be democratic and not hinder them or worse destroy them).

[Wezil]

I ask only that we withhold judgement until we have more facts.

Wrong site.

[Gibsie]

"The police all around the world face difficult tasks, due to the nature of suicide bombings. Israel hasnt been able to stop them completely. Do we want to look at all the police in the UK have done - they have quickly seized a bomb making factor in Leeds, arrested several suspects, and apparently just found a cache of explosives. The investigation is moving very quickly. The good guys are up against some really hard problems. Any approach will mean mistakes sometimes, whether mistakes of commission or ommission. I ask only that we withhold judgement until we have more facts."

They have done well, mostly, but glossing over where they have clearly failed helps nobody. It's because I have such high expectations for the police that I am so harsh about this monumental f-up.

And if Israel has ever let a suspected suicide bomber they've been observing get right up close to their target, that would really surprise me.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Patroklos


I would imagine the suicide part.

Aggie using "flight or fight" as a serious defense, priceless.

I guess that puts me in the same boat as many of the world's police forces. I love how the right got completely owned in this thread, don't you?

Do you have any better explanation for why innocent people behave irrationally when confronted by the police? Why does a soccer mom lead them on a 2 hour car chase?

[Gibsie]

What I particularly love is how, if this were actually a thread about how a man in Britain had been mugged and murdered by a group of men posing as police then people like Asher would be saying things like, "LOL what a moron, anyone with a brain could have seen through that ruse! Darwinism in action!!!"

[Agathon]

Some mod should close this thread and delete it since it's hit the limit. NYE doesn't need any more reasons to feel ashamed.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Gibsie
What I particularly love is how, if this were actually a thread about how a man in Britain had been mugged and murdered by a group of men posing as police then people like Asher would be saying things like, "LOL what a moron, anyone with a brain could have seen through that ruse! Darwinism in action!!!"

But he has problems empathizing with other human beings, so that's par for the course. Too many posters are like this, as are many of my students.

[Agathon]

The Banality of Evil, Molly. Nuff said. I'm not claiming that none of them ranted or raved on occasion, but meticulously counting how many Jews' teeth they had acquired seems pretty cold to me.

[DinoDoc]

Have we found out why he decided to kill himself (run) yet?

[Bereta_Eder]

Yes. He fell on the knife 20 times.