Rehnquist out tomorrow?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

http://www.nrlc.org/news/2003/NRL07/more_signs_of_a_pro.htm

Selective poll quoting only makes you look bad.

From 2005:

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

CBS News Poll. July 13-14, 2005. N=632 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4 (for all adults).

More than thirty years ago, the Supreme Court's decision in Roe versus Wade established a constitutional right for women to obtain legal abortions in this country. In general, do you think the Court's decision was a good thing or a bad thing?"

(Good thing)
(Bad thing)
(Both)
(Unsure)

ALL
59%
32%
4%
5%

So 59% of Americans thing Roe v Wade is a good thing. Does that mean 59% are liberals?

"If one of the U.S. Supreme Court justices retired, would you want the new Supreme Court justice to be someone who would vote to overturn Roe v. Wade -- the decision that legalized abortion -- or vote to uphold it?"

(Overturn)
(Uphold)
(Unsure)

6/24-26/05
29%
65%
6%

So 65% of Americans want a justice who will uphold RvW. Now, are 65% of Americans liberals? After all, that's your litmus test...

NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Bill McInturff (R). May 12-16, 2005. N=1,005 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.

"Which of the following best represents your views about abortion? The choice on abortion should be left up to the woman and her doctor. Abortion should be legal only in cases in which pregnancy results from rape or incest or when the life of the woman is at risk. OR, Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances."

(Woman and Doctor)
(Rape, Incest, Life of Woman)
(Always Illegal)
(Unsure)

5/12-16/05

55%
29%
14%
2%

55% of Americans think it should be left to a woman and her doctor. Are 55% of Americans liberals?

[Boris Godunov]

Ouch, there's the pile-on...

Originally posted by Ramo
Honestly Ben, you have the most absurd ideas of American laws and politics.

That's because he probably gets his "information" from rightwing fundie sources who make **** up. Case in point - his link with selective poll cites from Gallup.

[Ben Kenobi]

You should stop talking about American law as it is clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. Casey makes it clear that abortions after viability may be banned unless if necessary to protect the life or health of the mother.

Very true. Now what does Doe vs Bolton say about this clause 'life and health of the mother?'

We agree with the district court, 319 f.supp.,at 1058, that the Medical judgment may be exercised in the light of all factors-- Physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman's age-- Relevant to the well-being of the patient. All these factors may Relate to health.

http://www.trosch.org/law/doe%20v%20bolton.html

What this has meant, is that a woman, after viability, can have an abortion for whatever reason she wants. Unrestricted abortion on demand, is why Doe v Bolton is just as important and necessary as Roe v Wade, and why PP vs Casey relies upon both to reaffirm unrestricted abortion in the US.

[Ben Kenobi]

Case in point - his link with selective poll cites from Gallup.

The poll is a poll from Gallup in 2003, not 2005. The point stands that unrestricted abortion is quite different from your citation, which plays a few games here. Selective citation?

First of all, they supply a definition of Roe vs. Wade, such that to be against it, means that you are against the legalisation of abortion. Now, if you asked the question, do you favour Roe vs. Wade, which permitted unrestricted abortion on demand, throughout the United States, you will get much different results.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's because he probably gets his "information" from rightwing fundie sources who make **** up. Case in point - his link with selective poll cites from Gallup.

Does that make you feel better about yourself, Boris, to slag the source and not the argument?

[Ben Kenobi]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_poll5.htm

This poll was taken of youth aged 13 to 17. The question asked was "Should abortion be illegal in all circumstances, in certain circumstances or should it be legal in all circumstances?" The results were:

47% illegal in certain circumstances
32% illegal in all circumstances
19% legal in all circumstances.

[Imran Siddiqui]

What this has meant, is that a woman, after viability, can have an abortion for whatever reason she wants.

No, not for whatever reason she wants, Ben... read the sentance between you bolded: "Medical judgment may be exercised in light of all factors". Ie, it is a DOCTOR'S decision if the lack of an abortion would hurt the woman's health and he can take whatever factors to make that decision (ie, not just physical health).

[Ben Kenobi]

Has an abortion doctor ever denied a woman an abortion because of health reasons Imran? That's my point. The intent was to establish a rationale to justify all abortions. Since all pregnancies affect the mental health of a woman, the woman who cites mental health as her reason for an abortion after viability, will be able to procure the abortion.

[Ramo]

This poll was taken of youth aged 13 to 17.

So, you look at a single poll of kids two years ago, and think this means something? Your reference doesn't even show the MoE or sample size. This sort of intellectual dishonesty is just pathetic...

Recent Gallup's numbers (of adults):

CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. June 24-26, 2005. N=1,009 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?"

Always legal: 24%
Sometimes legal: 55%
Always illegal: 20%
Unsure: 1%

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

[Imran Siddiqui]

The poll is a poll from Gallup in 2003, not 2005.

Has an abortion doctor ever denied a woman an abortion because of health reasons Imran?

I don't know every doctor. They may have indeed been. Not every doctor supports abortion after all. Unless you think all of them do.

The intent was to establish a rationale to justify all abortions.

Then why would they say the state can ban abortions after viability.

[Ben Kenobi]

Always legal: 24%

Thank you Ramo. That's my point precisely. The justices who favour Roe which permits unrestricted abortion on demand in the US are more liberal than the vast majority of Americans.

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't know every doctor. They may have indeed been. Not every doctor supports abortion after all. Unless you think all of them do.

I would think that if a woman who wanted an abortion, and got denied one, that there would be an awful kerfluffle.

Secondly, I can see how Doe v. Bolton permits abortions after viability for any health reason, including the mental health of the mother. Does that make sense to you Imran?

Then why would they say the state can ban abortions after viability.

Except for health reasons. That's the loophole, that the courts have used to strike down even partial birth abortion bans, because that is the loophole which permits unrestricted abortions through all nine months of pregnancy.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
First of all, they supply a definition of Roe vs. Wade, such that to be against it, means that you are against the legalisation of abortion. Now, if you asked the question, do you favour Roe vs. Wade, which permitted unrestricted abortion on demand, throughout the United States, you will get a much different results.

Oh you might get different results, but that wording is fundamentally dishonest. Not surprised you'd opt for it, though.

Roe v. Wade leaves up to the states whether or not they want to place restrictions on abortions in the 3rd trimester, and allows for restricting to medically necessary ones in the 2nd trimester.

Now, the poll question could be:

"In 1973 the Roe versus Wade decision established a woman's constitutional right to an abortion, at least in the first three months of pregnancy. Would you like to see the Supreme Court completely overturn its Roe versus Wade decision, or not?"

That's pretty damned accurate. Oh wait, and that WAS one of the questions asked, and guess what? 63% were opposed to overturning it!

The poll is a poll from Gallup in 2003, not 2005. The point stands that unrestricted abortion is quite different from your citation, which plays a few games here. Selective citation?

Why not actually cite the Gallup poll? Your link is only quoting selective numbers. I want to see the actual poll questions and their results.

And the ones I cited were more directly related to the issue of Roe v. Wade. YOU were the once claiming that there was some sort of 50-50 split on it, so therefore one half was conservative, one half was liberal. None of the polls presented so far have lent that assertion an iota of credibility. Not to mention that the premise itself is sans merit, as abortion opinions don't fall neatly along conservative/liberal lines, and that's not the only issue that defines a person, politically.

[Ben Kenobi]

I've got to go now Boris.

Take this up probably tomorrow.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I would think that if a woman who wanted an abortion, and got denied one, that there would be an awful kerfluffle.

Any proof for your BAM? Thought not.

I mean if a doctor denied an abortion because he didn't think the health reasons were adequate in, say, West Texas, you think there would be much of an outcry? And who's to say it hasn't already happened.

I can see how Doe v. Bolton permits abortions after viability for any health reason, including the mental health of the mother.

Have you not been listening? The doctor has to determine whether or not being prevented from having an abortion would risk the health of the mother. Mental health is obviously (and should be) included in that determination.

That's the loophole, that the courts have used to strike down even partial birth abortion bans

Oh yes.. because the idiot states refuse to include that wording in the ban. And try to ban procedures that can be used in the 2nd trimester as well.

If the state allowed for a doctor, or even a panel of doctors, to decide if an abortion was necessary to safeguard the health of a mother, then it would pass.