Why isn't there more talk of the smoking gun memo?

[Agathon]

I guess Bush is the first politician that has ever lied...

Hmmmm... now that I think of it, every president I can remember has lied as well...

Hmmmm... and so has just about every other world leader...

The consequences of this lie are far worse. That is the problem. We all know that Johnson lied about the Gulf of Tonkin, and that Reagan lied about Central America. Some pretty bad **** happened because of that. But that occurred within the bounds of an international order that all the big players agreed to. That's why the US invasion of Grenada was not particularly destablising, and nor were Soviet interventions in such places as Hungary, and nor was China's invasion and occupation of Tibet. All of these were bad, but none threatened to bring down the international order, since each tended to keep its overt interventions to its own sphere of influence. Thus, was World War III averted.

Now we have a mentally incompetent president, whose advisers seem to have little grip on political reality (and the diplomatic community, including US diplomats will be the first to tell you this in private) who have basically announced that they intend to run the world by force. If you didn't get the message, they made it US policy, and if you still didn't get the message they invaded a sovereign country in defiance of world opinion to prove it. That would be OK if the US actually was capable of doing this, but it isn't. You won't take the tax hikes it would need for a start.

So we are left with going back to what the world was like before WW1 – several power blocs each with a roughly similar ideology attempting to protect themselves against the others. Now we all know what happened there. I have no idea if that will happen again, but Shrub's seeming desire to destroy the even limited authority of the UN is completely daft. The UN is far from perfect, but it, or something like it, is the only alternative to the old systems of alliances and stupidity. Sure, it has a mixed history, but that can be solely laid at the feet of the great powers, who have consistently vetoed what didn't suit them. But it is still better than the jungle.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Both were decent men. Both were ineffectual Presidents.

It wouldn't be the first time that somebody has noted that basic fact... sigh...

[Agathon]

I'm pissed... but I'm pised at the war. You don't seem to be listening. If he had just said DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM, he probably would have sold the war anyway... so the lie really DOESN'T matter. That's the point.

I don't think it would make much difference. The inviolability of states is the cornerstone of the world order. It is bad, and sometimes has disastrous results, but it is the only way that bad players can be brought to the table and made to play ball. The alternative is worse. If you don't allow bad states a seat at the table, then you go back to the jungle.

People laugh at the UN when countries like Libya end up on the human rights council – they shouldn't. That's the point – we don't have the power or will to impose good ideals on the world by force. Nobody does. This is the best alternative to trying.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Agathon
The consequences of this lie are far worse. That is the problem.

It seems some want to say that the lie caused the war... feel free to continue to live in that fantasy world.

The lie was just one way to the war... there were others. The war was going to happen no matter what.

[Drake Tungsten]

The fact that he choose to hang it on WOMD vs Democracy and Freedom was a bad mistake... he probably could have gotten away with the latter if he had put as much effort into as the WOMD argument.

Yep. One of many miscalculations.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Ming


I'm pissed... but I'm pised at the war. You don't seem to be listening. If he had just said DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM, he probably would have sold the war anyway... so the lie really DOESN'T matter. That's the point.

It does matter. It destroys our credibility. Yes, the war would have been sold on those grounds, but the damage would have been much, much less.

Now when Bush says, "democracy" and "freedom," people roll their eyes because it's nothing more than a joke.

And as far as the worst in 50 years... I guess you are to young to remember Viet Nam

That's actually a pretty good analogy.

[Agathon]

Compare Bush II with Bush I. Bush I was a consummate diplomat who understood the limitations of both the UN and the US perfectly. I'm sure he would have liked to see Saddam fall, but he was quite aware of the disastrous affect on international relations that exceeding the UN mandate would have had. He even said this in his book.

I have no love for Republicans, but I respect George Bush Sr for the simple fact that he knew what he was doing. He must be privately horrified at what's going on now.

The best that could happen if this continues is that the US bankrupts itself in the same way the Soviets did, trying to pursue a futile dream of imposing itself on the world by force. You've seen those pics of Russian naval units rusting at anchor. That's the future of the US in the happy event that the current policies don't lead to mass nuclear proliferation and disaster.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Agathon
Now we have a mentally incompetent president, whose advisers seem to have little grip on political reality (and the diplomatic community, including US diplomats will be the first to tell you this in private) who have basically announced that they intend to run the world by force. If you didn't get the message, they made it US policy, and if you still didn't get the message they invaded a sovereign country in defiance of world opinion to prove it. That would be OK if the US actually was capable of doing this, but it isn't. You won't take the tax hikes it would need for a start.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Agathon
I have no love for Republicans, but I respect George Bush Sr for the simple fact that he knew what he was doing. He must be privately horrified at what's going on now.

I also respected Bush Sr... the world knew what to expect from him, and damn, they respected him as well.
It was too much to hope that sonny boy would turn out anywhere near as well... The good news is, he's now a lame duck president. It's amazing how fast the worlds opinion can change with the change of administrations.

Hopefully the next president will get caught having a BJ, and the other world leaders will respect him

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ming


I also respected Bush Sr... the world knew what to expect from him, and damn, they respected him as well.
It was too much to hope that sonny boy would turn out anywhere near as well... The good news is, he's now a lame duck president. It's amazing how fast the worlds opinion can change with the change of administrations.

I sure hope so, but it seems to me that his spinmeisters have been quite effective in demonising anyone who disagrees with him.

Hopefully the next president will get caught having a BJ, and the other world leaders will respect him

Since it is likely to be John McCain or Hillary Clinton, that seems unlikely. Well unless Johnny Boy and Hillary have a thing, or the rumours about Hillary are true!

[Ming]

Originally posted by Agathon
but it seems to me that his spinmeisters have been quite effective in demonising anyone who disagrees with him.

Seems fair since the left is doing their best to demonize him

or the rumours about Hillary are true!

[DRoseDARs]

As long as I don't have to hear about cigars and blue dresses again...

[Agathon]

Seems fair since the left is doing their best to demonize him

They needn't bother. Regular folks don't listen to the left, and they already think he's Satan. I did a straw poll in my class last semester and out of about 100 almost all said they hated Bush (I hadn't primed them or anything – it was a response to a student comment).

And these are rich kids.

[Agathon]

BTW - every American I spoke to about the Clinton Lewinsky thing was more outraged that he couldn't get a better looking girl to do him.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ming
I would agree that we should shoot all the politicians... but you seem to want to shoot only one.

Those words......placed right beside your avatar.....things just seem to fit together right about now.

We've been duped all along. We thought the enemy was here on Earth......but we were wrong!