Why isn't there more talk of the smoking gun memo?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


Talk about pissing in the wind Do you deny the holocaust too?

Really a weird and illogical conclusion - if you doubt, take a look at second post from bottom here :

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134422&perpage=30&pagenumber=6

What I was commenting was a pretty poorly written summary from a meeting. Despite the fact that is so bad, the usual critics of the Iraq war take it litterally and claims that it is proof of the evil behind.

[Provost Harrison]

Evil or no evil, it is documented evidence that he lied and deceived...

[Ted Striker]

And it's not just a "oh, he got a few facts confused," it's a "good lawd he went out of his way to do it."

[Ming]

I guess Bush is the first politician that has ever lied...

Hmmmm... now that I think of it, every president I can remember has lied as well...

Hmmmm... and so has just about every other world leader...

I'm not a big fan of Bush, and I wish the republicans could come up with better candidates... but face it folks... politicians lie all the time. This hand wringing like it's the first time a president has ever lied is kind of silly.
Yeah, it's wrong... but some people must be living in fantasy land if they think it's a rare occurance for a world leader to lie... Clinton was equally as bad, and so was Bush senior... Reagan... Nixon... Kennedy... Carter was probably the only one close to being honest

[Dinner]

It's not like he was just lying about getting a blow job. He lied about his desires to go to war then deliberately decieved everyone in order to go on his personal crusade. What's worse is he knowingly doctored the evidence and now tries to blame the CIA for his own actions.

We're orders of magnitude above anything since Nixon's outright criminal activities.

[Ted Striker]

Ming, while the spirit of what you say is true, it doesn't make it right.

And on top of that, which scenario would you prefer:

1) The President lying to his own people to take them into an indefinite, EXPENSIVE war

2) The President lying about getting his dick sucked in the White House


The magnitude of this lie is beyond proportion

EDIT: Oerdin got it first

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Ming
I guess Bush is the first politician that has ever lied...

Hmmmm... now that I think of it, every president I can remember has lied as well...

Hmmmm... and so has just about every other world leader...

I'm not a big fan of Bush, and I wish the republicans could come up with better candidates... but face it folks... politicians lie all the time. This hand wringing like it's the first time a president has ever lied is kind of silly.
Yeah, it's wrong... but some people must be living in fantasy land if they think it's a rare occurance for a world leader to lie... Clinton was equally as bad, and so was Bush senior... Reagan... Nixon... Kennedy... Carter was probably the only one close to being honest

And how does your 'well he did it too!' justification make it any better. It certainly ranks as being far more worrying than some random sexual misdemeanour I don't give a flying f**k about quite frankly. But this is certainly not a private issue, it is an issue that has cost countless thousands of lives...and for what? And on what grounds?

[Ming]

I didn't say it was right... And Clinton threw a couple of cruise missles around to take the mind of the media off of his BJ's... but I guess you are forgetting that as well.. Was it wrong... sure. But oh, this is a bigger a lie... so it's worse... ALL politicians tell the BIG lies... If it wasn't WOMD, he would have pinned his war on some other story. He would have been better off sticking to the "Free the Iraqi" line... but his spinsters didn't think that would be enough. He was going to war regardless... and anybody that didn't have that figured out wasn't seeing reality. The fact that he choose to hang it on WOMD vs Democracy and Freedom was a bad mistake... he probably could have gotten away with the latter if he had put as much effort into as the WOMD argument. And frankly, that's why many americans don't really care. It's a done deal... Sure, his opponents would like to use it to attack him... no surprise there... and sure, the war has been an expensive one, and it sucks... But to cry like stuck pigs because of a president lying/shading the truth to sell something he was going to do anyway... seems like a waste of time. Our efforts would be better spent trying to do something about now and the future, instead of running around like headless chickens because a president was lying. Nothing you can do will keep Bush or future presidents (and any other world leader) from lying to push their agenda... remember, they are politicians.

[Ted Striker]

You're trying to spin this into a political issue, like it's just his opponents using it to attack him for political purposes. Like people are criticizing him so "their guy" can look better.

Well you know what? This goes BEYOND politics. It's morally reprehensible what we did. We invaded another country. And we turned a blind eye to it. Politics be damned.

This man would be brought up on war crimes if it was in another country.

But I guess in your book the magnitude of the situation doesn't matter. "It's just another lie."

Those cruise missles were fired and that was the end of it. And one of those attacks WAS justified. The one in Sudan was not.

Even if you take away all the lying, the execution of the invasion was outright incompetent. All the military generals told the idiot what to expect and he ignored all of them. The political cost is way too high.

We shouldn't "just accept it," because he was going to do it no matter what.

We had the entire world behind us after 9/11, and because of this idiot using the situation to justify the attack on Iraq, now we are laughing stock to the rest of the world.

And THAT is why the lie is even worse.

This has been one of the worse mistakes in the history of our country.

[Ming]

You are welcome to your opinin... While I don't condone it... it happened. And things like this have happened in the past, and will happen again.

Yeah... we went to war. That is the real issue here.
But everybody seems to be pointing at the lie.
As I said, he probably could have gotten away with it if he had just said DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM... So yeah, he made a big mistake. But it doesn't change the fact that the war was going to happen. The lie isn't really THE KEY issue. But feel free to continue to rant and rave like politicians don't do it all the time... and over the big issues as well... and keep thinking that Clinton was a saint... and that all his lies were only small ones... and that other world leaders don't tell the big lies as welll...

If that's what makes you happy...

[Ted Striker]

Your complete apathy towards the situation is very shocking.

Do you not see how far down the slope we are sliding?

Do you think it's just business as usual?


Murder happens. It's going to happen, people always murder. But according to Ming we shouldn't be outraged about it.

Hey, **** happens.

[Ming]

It's not apathy... you are the one ignoring reality.

Did the war end up bad... YES!
Did they have an exit plan... NO!
Could they have done it better... YES!
Should we have gone to war... NO!

Does the way that a politician sells his agenda change any of that... NO!

So you can try to twist my words... but you seem to twisting your panties in a knot because a world leader actually lied. So did Clinton... and other world leaders.

I would agree that we should shoot all the politicians... but you seem to want to shoot only one.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Ming
Carter was probably the only one close to being honest

We had a similar discussion a couple of years ago. I went back thru the U.S. Presidents thru FDR.

I couldn't come up with lies by either Carter or Ford.

Both were decent men. Both were ineffectual Presidents.
I hope there isn't a causal connection.

[Ted Striker]

I would agree that we should shoot all the politicians... but you seem to want to shoot only one.

That makes absolutley no sense whatsover Ming.


Politicians make decisions that affect people. This particular one has mad more bad decisions than anyone else in the last 30 years, probably the last 50. This particular one happens to be the most powerful man in the entire world.

So it does matter.

You have no idea what the effects of the magnitude of this lie have had, otherwise you would be pissed too.

It's no big deal though, politicians lie all the time.

[Ming]

You have no idea what the effects of the magnitude of this lie have had, otherwise you would be pissed too.

I'm pissed... but I'm pised at the war. You don't seem to be listening. If he had just said DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM, he probably would have sold the war anyway... so the lie really DOESN'T matter. That's the point.

And as far as the worst in 50 years... I guess you are to young to remember Viet Nam