Why isn't there more talk of the smoking gun memo?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Agathon

Seems fair since the left is doing their best to demonize him

They needn't bother. .

Yep.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Ming


I also respected Bush Sr... the world knew what to expect from him, and damn, they respected him as well.

what he had which both his son and Tony Blah lack is oodles of foreign policy experience. he also happened to have served his country in war so when the hawks like cheney said let's go to Baghdad he wisely said no.

I liked him a lot. A sort of patrician conservative with old fashioned values. Its a shame the repubs went down market. Guys like Bush snr seem to mainly hang out in the senate these days.

One old repub senator gave a brilliant speech about how the administration had lost touch with traditional conservative values, I forget one, Bird perhaps?

I'd never vote for any of them mind, but i respect my opponents

[Slaughtermeyer]

Originally posted by Agathon

I have no love for Republicans, but I respect George Bush Sr for the simple fact that he knew what he was doing. He must be privately horrified at what's going on now.

Bush Jr. didn't even bother asking his father about his opinion on invading Iraq, according to Bob Woodward:

Did Mr. Bush ask his father for any advice? “I asked the president about this. And President Bush said, ‘Well, no,’ and then he got defensive about it,� says Woodward. “Then he said something that really struck me. He said of his father, ‘He is the wrong father to appeal to for advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal to in terms of strength.’ And then he said, ‘There's a higher Father that I appeal to.’"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in612067.shtml

For details on the people whom Bush did rely upon for Iraq advice: The Night After

[Slaughtermeyer]

The last part of the interview includes a statement that struck me as a sign that Bush has a premonition that his war will end in apocalyptic disaster:

“After the second interview with him on Dec. 11, we got up and walked over to one of the doors. There are all of these doors in the Oval Office that lead outside. And he had his hands in his pocket, and I just asked, ‘Well, how is history likely to judge your Iraq war,’� says Woodward.

“And he said, ‘History,’ and then he took his hands out of his pocket and kind of shrugged and extended his hands as if this is a way off. And then he said, ‘History, we don’t know. We’ll all be dead.’�

[Agathon]

Yeah... I feel sorry for Powell. It must have been like living in an asylum.

[Alexander's Horse]

Powell is a tragic figure.

He and Schwarzkopf amongst others made it their life mission to rebuild the US army after the Vietnam debacle and they lived to see the fine army they created sent into yet another quagmire.

[Agathon]

He and Schwarzkopf amongst others made it their life mission to rebuild the US army after the Vietnam debacle and they lived to see the fine army they created sent into yet another quagmire.

On the bright side, it's America, so he can get paid millions for signing his name to a book complaining about it.

[Alexander's Horse]

as did Schwarzkopf, but the fact remains their life's work is in ruins and I'm sure neither of them is happy about it.

[Agathon]

This too will pass.

What's the general consensus from diplos you know? I know a guy who was quite high in the Canadian diplomatic service and he keeps in contact with all his old pals. They all think Shrub and co are nuts, including many American diplomats.

[Ted Striker]

Definitley, the story of Powell is a modern tragedy in every sense of the word.

If I was the next President, the very FIRST thing I would do would be to bring Powell, Bush Sr., and Clinton into my office and ask for their help in figuring this mess out. Also Swarzkopf.

I would of course understand if they didn't want to get involved, seeing as how big the mess is. And how all 3 of them warned against invading Baghdad because of the very thing that has happened.

[Agathon]

The problem is that there doesn't seem to be enough desire to back down from this silly hegemony thing in either party.

The Democrats are basically bent and ineffectual, and the Repugs are too scared of the religious people.

[DanS]

The real cause of this war was sustained strong support for it by the US public. As far as the American politics of this goes, Bush Sr made a mistake by not fully taking care of business the first time we sent everybody over there. What kind of weakling of a president plays the Hitler card and then allows Hitler to keep power? In hindsight, that was a profound mistake. I didn't support Gulf War I, but once we got into it, I supported the finishing of it. We had the means in place to finish it then.

I disagree with Ming in part that Bush Jr lied about this. I think Bush believed that Saddam had WMD, but that proof was scarce. In this case, trying to find intelligence to bolster the case for WMD makes sense. I was surprised that our intelligence system is so poor and could not give better background on what was going on over there.

But I agree with Ming in that the war wasn't about WMD even though that was the justification offered. Bush Jr got millions more votes after the justification turned out false than he got the first time on the ballot...

[Ted Striker]

Agathon,

You're right.

We're stuck in a political quagmire.

It's very discouraging. There has to be SOMEBODY that can step up.

Even Howard Dean backed off some comments he made this week when he said how dishonest the Administration was. I was like, "of all people, you would think DEAN would stand up to them."

[Agathon]

The real cause of this war was sustained strong support for it by the US public. As far as the American politics of this goes, Bush Sr made a mistake by not fully taking care of business the first time we sent everybody over there. What kind of weakling of a president plays the Hitler card and then allows Hitler to keep power?

The reason why is clearly stated in his book: he was not an incompetent idiot. If the US had actually done that in 1991 it would have lost all credibility with Arab nations and with most of the third world. The UN is built on the inviolability of member states – deposing Saddam would have been committing the same crime he was guilty of.

GW1 was a masterful piece of diplomacy and one which increased trust in the US by almost every member of the UN. Invading Iraq would have destroyed that credibility outside of English speaking countries.

Why is it that you choose to ignore reality when making such comments?

[Ted Striker]

My nominations for next President:


Caeser Augustus
Abraham Lincoln
Jesus Christ