Why isn't there more talk of the smoking gun memo?

[DanS]

The reason why is clearly stated in his book: he was not an incompetent idiot. If the US had actually done that in 1991 it would have lost all credibility with Arab nations and with most of the third world. The UN is built on the inviolability of member states – deposing Saddam would have been committing the same crime he was guilty of.

GW1 was a masterful piece of diplomacy and one which increased trust in the US by almost every member of the UN. Invading Iraq would have destroyed that credibility outside of English speaking countries.

It may have been great politics generally globally, but it was a profound mistake to whip up American public opinion and then not follow through on what he implicitly promised them.

Again, what kind of president plays the Hitler card and then allow Hitler to keep power? I don't think he was a good president. I don't think he had a good feeling of what the American people wanted. I have great respect for him, on the other hand.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Agathon,

You're right.

We're stuck in a political quagmire.

It's very discouraging. There has to be SOMEBODY that can step up.

Who? Anyone who does will be labelled as anti-American and someone who wishes to kow tow to the UN and let countries like Iran, Syria and Zaire have a say in US policy (as if the alternative wouldn't be having to fight them which is more expensive).

Even a moderate like McCain will be forced to the right if he is elected. Hillary is starting to say dumb things as well. The whole Israel thing is a political hot potato (Clinton now looks incredibly daring for attempting to sort it out).

Much of middle America is so convinced that the "liberal" establishment is going to ban the bible or force them to be ****ed up the ass by gays that they have ceased to pay any real attention to what's going on. As long as the government is killing some A-rabs to get even for 9/11 that's OK with them. The fact that half of them still believe Saddam was responsible for 9/11 shows that a significant and important part of the electorate has basically ceased trying to find out the facts. Even the (divergent) opinions on gay marriage in Canada are at least largely held by people who understand the facts of the case. I wish that were the same as the US and foreign policy.

More to the point: I can't see how the US dollar can continue to hold its value. If that goes bang I can see American elites attempting to shift the blame to Europeans and Asians with god knows what consequences. Whatever happens, you can be sure they won't blame it on their own reckless spending.

[Slaughtermeyer]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
My nominations for next President:

Caeser Augustus
Abraham Lincoln
Jesus Christ

Here's how the Republicans would attack the candidacy of Jesus Christ:

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Agathon


Who? Anyone who does will be labelled as anti-American and someone who wishes to kow tow to the UN and let countries like Iran, Syria and Zaire have a say in US policy (as if the alternative wouldn't be having to fight them which is more expensive).

Even a moderate like McCain will be forced to the right if he is elected. Hillary is starting to say dumb things as well. The whole Israel thing is a political hot potato (Clinton now looks incredibly daring for attempting to sort it out).

Much of middle America is so convinced that the "liberal" establishment is going to ban the bible or force them to be ****ed up the ass by gays that they have ceased to pay any real attention to what's going on. As long as the government is killing some A-rabs to get even for 9/11 that's OK with them. The fact that half of them still believe Saddam was responsible for 9/11 shows that a significant and important part of the electorate has basically ceased trying to find out the facts. Even the (divergent) opinions on gay marriage in Canada are at least largely held by people who understand the facts of the case. I wish that were the same as the US and foreign policy.

More to the point: I can't see how the US dollar can continue to hold its value. If that goes bang I can see American elites attempting to shift the blame to Europeans and Asians with god knows what consequences. Whatever happens, you can be sure they won't blame it on their own reckless spending.

[Agathon]

It may have been great politics generally globally, but it was a profound mistake to whip up American public opinion and then not follow through on what he implicitly promised them.

Frankly, he knew that American public opinion is less important than keeping the world order stable. He was right, I don't see how you could say the opposite.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer


Here's how the Republicans would attack the candidacy of Jesus Christ:

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Agathon

It may have been great politics generally globally, but it was a profound mistake to whip up American public opinion and then not follow through on what he implicitly promised them.

Frankly, he knew that American public opinion is less important than keeping the world order stable. He was right, I don't see how you could say the opposite.

I guess you could say the Bush 2 strategy is sort of a canniblizing one. Unfortunatley I don't see it ever running out of food.

It just seems to get fatter the more it eats.

[Agathon]

I think that American public life was a lot more open when Bush was in charge. Nothing like the 60s and 70s, but more open than now. Both parties have now moved to the right and have little or nothing in common with ordinary people other than that the Republicans pretend that they are conducting a sort of cultural class warfare against the liberal democratic-voting elite (you know - people like blacks and poor folk).

[DanS]

Frankly, he knew that American public opinion is less important than keeping the world order stable. He was right, I don't see how you could say the opposite.

You must not have been paying attention the last several years on what I and a lot of other Americans on Poly have been concluding. In hindsight, I don't think keeping the world order stable was more important.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by DanS

You must not have been paying attention the last several years on what I and a lot of other Americans on Poly have been concluding. In hindsight, I don't think keeping the world order stable was more important.

Oh sure... we've been listening. We just think that you're full of crap.

[Drake Tungsten]

In hindsight, I don't think keeping the world order stable was more important.

Agreed. The old world order has been falling apart on its own ever since the Soviet Union fell. The Bush administration had a choice between continuing to prop up an ever more untenable status quo or using America's global weight to influence how the next world order will take shape, hopefully in our favor. I think they made the right call, even if I don't approve of many of the details of their execution.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by DanS
The real cause of this war was sustained strong support for it by the US public.

Whipped up by very shortsighted demagogery and populist policy. It was all calculated. The war on terror is a joke. Terror alerts in Hoboken?

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Ming

You have no idea what the effects of the magnitude of this lie have had, otherwise you would be pissed too.

I'm pissed... but I'm pised at the war. You don't seem to be listening. If he had just said DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM, he probably would have sold the war anyway... so the lie really DOESN'T matter. That's the point.

And as far as the worst in 50 years... I guess you are to young to remember Viet Nam

No, only WMD was a strong enough issue and that's the sad part. If Bush had proposed ridding Iraq of Saddam on the basis of Democracy and Freedom the Democrats would have made it a partisan issue and there would have been absolutely no agreement instead of limited agreement to proceed.

More important there would have been no "coalition of the willing" because nobody is willing to stick their necks out. Bush could have argued justly that Saddam's disregard for the terms of surrender was a genuine cassus belli but it would have fallen on deaf ears.

I still don't think this memo or anything else presented to date amounts to a falsification of intelligence. To date the only falsified intelligence was supplied by Italy. There was reasonable doubt that UN presence eliminated Saddam's ability to research and manufacture of WMDs.

I'm not pissed at the war or the lack of "exit strategy." There is only one exit strategy possible, whether in Iraq or Afghanistan. When that government decides it can handle the "bad guys" without us we'll go.

The truth is that neither democracy nor freedom can be pressed upon a people. It is a huge risk, politically, because Iraq may not be stable enough with or without US presence for democracy to survive when another strong man comes to the fore.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Whipped up by very shortsighted demagogery and populist policy. It was all calculated. The war on terror is a joke. Terror alerts in Hoboken?

You misunderstand me. The support for military action against Saddam Hussein to remove him from power was a steady 62% for 11 years before Bush Jr decided to do it.

[Zkribbler]

Here's how the Republicans would attack the candidacy of Jesus Christ:

Heartbreakingly funny. It's too bad politics has given up the search for the best candidate and has devolved into a mud wrestling contest.