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Why isn't there more talk of the smoking gun memo?

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  • The only "lie" I see exposed by this memo is that oft repeated statements by the amdinistration that they had not yet chosen war as THE option until early 2003. Of course, I never onjce bought that. so I am not particulalry shot.

    That post-war planning was a joke should have also been evident from day one.

    These memo's carry no surprises anywhere for those who never once trusted this imbecilic administration.

    As for Drake's notion of Bush remaking a crumbling status quo...WHAT ENDANGERED STATUS QUO? I am sorry, but AQ was not in 2001 nor is today, nor shall be, a threat to the global Status Quo. AQ has never had the power to overturn ANY secure middle eastern dictatorships. They simply don't. That they can plan immense crimes is not the same as saying that they are a threat to the global status quo, anymore than the waves of anarchist assasinations from the 1880's to the 1900's ever trully shook the global status quo.

    As for Saddam- even if the sanctions regime around his fell, he simply was not a threat to the local balance of power, and would not be for years, and even then, he would probably not have ever been able to threaten the more secure Iranina regime, nor the better armed and increasingly more populous SA.

    In 4 years Bush has done little if anything to reshape the world status quo for the beenfit of the US. The war in Iraq has given AQ an opening simply because while they would never have been able to bring down Saddam, the US did it for them, and was not capable of pluggin the whole well enough. Our poor example in Iraq makes the likelyhood of more "humanitarian wars" much more difficult. The fact is Bush has discredited significantly the idea of using direct military force to end dictatorships by his utter imcompetence in running the Iraq war, and the problem is, Iraq was by far the easiest target open.

    Having "ideas and vision" is secondary to being competent. This admin. has many "visions", but they are not up to the task of carrying any of them out. And in their half assed attempts they have made things less stable in the world without adding stability anywhere.
    If you don't like reality, change it! me
    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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    • Originally posted by Donegeal
      Ok, even if this memo is real, and the info fixed (in the american sense of the word), does it change the fact that the removal of Saddam was a good thing?

      Don't get me wrong, if all this memo stuff proved to be true, I will most likely change my quote to "2004: Bush "
      Given the current state of Iraq, and what we've discovered during the occupation about the state of Iraq's WMD capabilities (i.e., there were none, thus no urgent need to invade), can you honestly say that the removal of Saddam and the results we've achieved so far has been worth 1700 American dead, a number of allied military forces dead, 200 American civilians dead, over 10,000 American wounded, and 200 billion dollars?

      Can any Bush supporter honestly say at the time the US committed to go into this war, the result we have achieved 27 months after the invasion is what we expected back then, and the result we collectively signed up for?

      This war is a FUBAR, and it shows absolutely no signs of being anything but a FUBAR into the future.
      Last edited by MichaeltheGreat; June 13, 2005, 15:59.
      When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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      • I am sorry, but the diffciult questions about IOraq's political future have not yet been put on the table for discussion between Iraqi's yet. It's taken over 2 years to get to that point, and this is the most dangerous point of all because it is now that the factions must put up and compromise on their deepest wishes and aims.
        If you don't like reality, change it! me
        "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
        "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
        "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

        Comment


        • Originally posted by chegitz guevara
          9/11 occured in 2001. AQ never attacked the WTC before then.
          How quickly people forget...
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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          • Who were the guys that attacked in 1993? Did they even have an affiliation?
            One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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            • Originally posted by DanS
              Originally posted by chegitz guevara
              9/11 occured in 2001. AQ never attacked the WTC before then.
              How quickly people forget...
              Originally posted by Dauphin
              Who were the guys that attacked in 1993? Did they even have an affiliation?
              According to the BBC, who maintains a section on their website about the organization, the connection is unclear except to say that they sought out the planners of the bombing. al Qaeda was founded in 1988 btw.
              The cake is NOT a lie. It's so delicious and moist.

              The Weighted Companion Cube is cheating on you, that slut.

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              • Originally posted by DanS


                How quickly people forget...
                That's the nice thing about al Qaeda. We currently define it as just about any group that doesn't like us. "Omar al-****heed of the Islamic Assahollahs of Doom once drove by the site of a training camp once run by a guy whose cousin saw one of bin Laden's bodyguards at a distance ten years previously, so obviosly the Islamic Assahollahs of Doom are a part of al Qaeda."

                It's pathetic, really, because we've got an enemy who can be defined any way we want to justify our policy of the moment, and a way to make sure there's never an end to this "war."
                When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

                Comment


                • As for Drake's notion of Bush remaking a crumbling status quo...WHAT ENDANGERED STATUS QUO? I am sorry, but AQ was not in 2001 nor is today, nor shall be, a threat to the global Status Quo. AQ has never had the power to overturn ANY secure middle eastern dictatorships. They simply don't


                  I don't see why folk don't realize the blindingly obvious. AQ wanted the US to invade Afghanistan so that they could do to the US what the mujahadeen had done to the USSR. At least the US played it smart in Afghanistan, but then ruined it by giving AQ exactly what it wanted in Iraq.

                  Why do you think 9/11 happened in the first place?
                  Only feebs vote.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dauphin
                    Who were the guys that attacked in 1993? Did they even have an affiliation?
                    The senior Omar Abdel Rahman is an Egyptian Islamic fanatic. Ten years after the WTC attacks, two of his sons were caught, one in Afghanistan and one connected with, but not part of, the capture of Khalid Shaikh Mohammad. One kid is an AQ operative, one apparently just a random Afghan-Arab jihadi, so we reach back through the looking glass and proclaim that the earlier attack was an AQ operation, just as the presence of a few Afghan-Arab fanatics/mercenaries suddenly and conveniently put an AQ imprint on the results of our bungled interference in Somali clan warfare with TF Ranger in UNISOM II.

                    Both patently bull****, but we have to build up the enemy to justify the perpetual war.
                    When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Agathon
                      As for Drake's notion of Bush remaking a crumbling status quo...WHAT ENDANGERED STATUS QUO? I am sorry, but AQ was not in 2001 nor is today, nor shall be, a threat to the global Status Quo. AQ has never had the power to overturn ANY secure middle eastern dictatorships. They simply don't


                      I don't see why folk don't realize the blindingly obvious. AQ wanted the US to invade Afghanistan so that they could do to the US what the mujahadeen had done to the USSR. At least the US played it smart in Afghanistan, but then ruined it by giving AQ exactly what it wanted in Iraq.

                      Why do you think 9/11 happened in the first place?
                      Because they hate freedom.
                      When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GePap
                        The only "lie" I see exposed by this memo is that oft repeated statements by the amdinistration that they had not yet chosen war as THE option until early 2003. Of course, I never onjce bought that. so I am not particulalry shot.

                        That post-war planning was a joke should have also been evident from day one.
                        Having read the memo I likewise agree with both these sentiments. Further I read the "But..... Fixed" phraseology in the memo as a means to imply the to then glaring holes in intelligence (both on the part of the Americans and WMD inspectors) on the activities of Sadaam that were being fixed in summer 2002. Or so they were being told
                        Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe; June 13, 2005, 17:55.
                        "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                        “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.†- Jimmy Carter

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                        • Originally posted by Dauphin
                          Who were the guys that attacked in 1993? Did they even have an affiliation?
                          Egyptian Islamic Jihad. These are the guys who killed Sadat. In 1993, they were mostly killing tourists in Egypt and a cell in the U.S. attacked the WTC. Ramsey Yusef, the planner of the attack, later joined al Qaeda, but he is not believed to have been a member in 1993.

                          From Wiki:
                          Note: Al-Qaeda does not have a habit of taking credit for actions, resulting in a great deal of ambiguity over how many attacks the group has actually conducted. In addition following the U.S. declaration of the War on Terrorism in 2001, the U.S. government has made a great effort to connect as many groups and actions as possible to al-Qaeda, which might result in erroneous attributions.


                          More about Yusef
                          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                          • BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service


                            I thought this was kinda relevant to the thread as it is a US senator saying that he now believes the whole weapons of mass destruction was a lie?
                            He was the guy who pushed for the renaming of french fries to freedom fries, and was very pro the war.
                            'The very basis of the liberal idea – the belief of individual freedom is what causes the chaos' - William Kristol, son of the founder of neo-conservitivism, talking about neo-con ideology and its agenda for you.info here. prove me wrong.

                            Bush's Republican=Neo-con for all intent and purpose. be afraid.

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                            • I'm still a bit unclear how a clear family involement from a part of the world where family is everything isn't meaningful. Can you you please explain?
                              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                              • I haven't been around here for awhile. But I clearly remember all the discussions about the Iraq war, especially those discussions we had before the attack started (about freedom fries, wezils and so on).
                                Now, this thread really surprises me. I'm counting at least three posters who seem to have completely changed their mind about the Iraq war. And even more, one of these formerly die hard pro war posters is now carrying George Galloway in his avatar.
                                ( to Ted Striker btw)
                                Actually I think this is a good thing. But generally I don't expect that anyone in an internet forum would ever be able to change his point of view. So what happened? There isn't even really new information on the table.
                                justice is might

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