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Why isn't there more talk of the smoking gun memo?

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  • The AP seems to have finally gotten off of its lazy pro-Republican ass and has started to carry the series of Downing Street Memos which continue to be uncovered by the British press proving that Bush lied and distorted fact after fact after fact. That means that domestic papers are now carrying the story about how Bush lied to America.


    British memos: Iraq war sounds like mere 'grudge'

    June 19, 2005

    BY THOMAS WAGNER

    LONDON -- When Prime Minister Tony Blair's chief foreign policy adviser dined with Condoleezza Rice six months after Sept. 11, the U.S. national security adviser didn't want to discuss Osama bin Laden or al-Qaida.

    She wanted to talk about ''regime change'' in Iraq, setting the stage for the U.S.-led invasion more than a year later.

    President Bush wanted Blair's support, but British officials worried the White House was rushing to war, according to a series of leaked secret Downing Street memos that have renewed questions and debate about Washington's motives for ousting Saddam Hussein.

    In one of the memos, British Foreign Office political director Peter Ricketts openly asks whether the Bush administration had a clear and compelling military reason for war.

    *''U.S. scrambling to establish a link between Iraq and al-Qaida is so far frankly unconvincing,'' Ricketts says in the memo. ''For Iraq, 'regime change' does not stack up. It sounds like a grudge between Bush and Saddam.''

    The documents confirm Blair was genuinely concerned about Saddam's alleged weapons of mass destruction, but also indicate he was determined to go to war as America's top ally, even though his government thought a preemptive attack may be illegal under international law.

    *''The truth is that what has changed is not the pace of Saddam Hussein's WMD programs, but our tolerance of them post-11 September,'' said a typed copy of a March 22, 2002, memo obtained Thursday by the Associated Press and written to Foreign Secretary Jack Straw.

    *''But even the best survey of Iraq's WMD programs will not show much advance in recent years on the nuclear, missile or CW/BW [chemical or biological weapons] fronts: the programs are extremely worrying but have not, as far as we know, been stepped up.''

    The eight memos -- all labeled ''secret'' or ''confidential'' -- were first obtained by British reporter Michael Smith, who has written about them in the Daily Telegraph and the Sunday Times.

    'Softening up' illegal?

    The Sunday Times this week reported that lawyers told the British government that U.S. and British bombing of Iraq in the months before the war was illegal under international law. That report, also by Smith, noted that almost a year before the war started, they began to strike more frequently.

    The newspaper quoted Lord Goodhart, vice president of the International Commission of Jurists, as backing the Foreign Office lawyers' view that aircraft could only patrol the no-fly zones to deter attacks by Saddam's forces.

    Goodhart said that if ''the purpose was to soften up Iraq for a future invasion or even to intimidate Iraq, the coalition forces were acting without lawful authority,'' the Sunday Times reported.

    AP

    CONDI'S ROLE

    Here are excerpts from material in secret Downing Street memos written in 2002. The information, authenticated by a senior British government official, was transcribed from the original documents:
    In a memo dated March 14, 2002, Tony Blair's chief foreign policy adviser, David Manning, tells the prime minister about a dinner he had with National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, now secretary of state. Manning is now the British ambassador to the United States.
    *''We spent a long time at dinner on Iraq. It is clear that Bush is grateful for your [Blair] support and has registered that you are getting flak. I said that you would not budge in your support for regime change but you had to manage a press, a Parliament and a public opinion that was very different than anything in the States. And you would not budge either in your insistence that, if we pursued regime change, it must be very carefully done and produce the right result. Failure was not an option.''
    *''Condi's enthusiasm for regime change is undimmed. But there were some signs, since we last spoke, of greater awareness of the practical difficulties and political risks. ... From what she said, Bush has yet to find the answers to the big questions: How to persuade international opinion that military action against Iraq is necessary and justified; What value to put on the exiled Iraqi opposition; How to coordinate a U.S./allied military campaign with internal opposition; (assuming there is any); What happens on the morning after?''
    AP


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    • Man, I can't wait until Hagel gets beat in the primaries for the Republican nod in 2008. He was a good senator until he started grandstanding for the media...
      KH FOR OWNER!
      ASHER FOR CEO!!
      GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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      • Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
        Man, I can't wait until Hagel gets beat in the primaries for the Republican nod in 2008. He was a good senator until he started grandstanding for the media...
        Grand standing? Cheney got up in a press conference and claimed that the Sunni insurgency in Iraq was in its death throws yet all the military people are saying it is as strong or stronger then it was one year ago. Hagal then responds that the White House's claims on this subject are completely disconnected from reality.

        That doesn't sound like grand standing. It sounds like a statement of fact.
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        • He then went on to say that "we're losing in Iraq." There's no evidence for that, of course, but that doesn't really matter when you're just playing the maverick to get media face time and up your profile for 2008...
          KH FOR OWNER!
          ASHER FOR CEO!!
          GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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          • no evidence? you already lost a long time ago
            Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

            Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

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            • No smilie Horse?
              KH FOR OWNER!
              ASHER FOR CEO!!
              GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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              • nah I think its a lost cause

                stalemate
                Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

                Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

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                • It's not a lost cause but it won't be easy. The long run solution is Iraqification and the phasing out of foreign troops. I give it a 50-50 chance to working or falling into civil war.
                  Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                  • Krugman has a pretty good take on the Downing Street memos and Bush's rush to war.


                    The War President

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                    By PAUL KRUGMAN
                    Published: June 24, 2005

                    VIENNA

                    In this former imperial capital, every square seems to contain a giant statue of a Habsburg on horseback, posing as a conquering hero.

                    America's founders knew all too well how war appeals to the vanity of rulers and their thirst for glory. That's why they took care to deny presidents the kingly privilege of making war at their own discretion.
                    Skip to next paragraph
                    Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times

                    Related More Columns by Paul Krugman
                    Readers
                    Forum: Paul Krugman's Columns

                    But after 9/11 President Bush, with obvious relish, declared himself a "war president." And he kept the nation focused on martial matters by morphing the pursuit of Al Qaeda into a war against Saddam Hussein.

                    In November 2002, Helen Thomas, the veteran White House correspondent, told an audience, "I have never covered a president who actually wanted to go to war" - but she made it clear that Mr. Bush was the exception. And she was right.

                    Leading the nation wrongfully into war strikes at the heart of democracy. It would have been an unprecedented abuse of power even if the war hadn't turned into a military and moral quagmire. And we won't be able to get out of that quagmire until we face up to the reality of how we got in.

                    Let me talk briefly about what we now know about the decision to invade Iraq, then focus on why it matters.

                    The administration has prevented any official inquiry into whether it hyped the case for war. But there's plenty of circumstantial evidence that it did.

                    And then there's the Downing Street Memo - actually the minutes of a prime minister's meeting in July 2002 - in which the chief of British overseas intelligence briefed his colleagues about his recent trip to Washington.

                    "Bush wanted to remove Saddam," says the memo, "through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and W.M.D. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." It doesn't get much clearer than that.

                    The U.S. news media largely ignored the memo for five weeks after it was released in The Times of London. Then some asserted that it was "old news" that Mr. Bush wanted war in the summer of 2002, and that W.M.D. were just an excuse. No, it isn't. Media insiders may have suspected as much, but they didn't inform their readers, viewers and listeners. And they have never held Mr. Bush accountable for his repeated declarations that he viewed war as a last resort.

                    Still, some of my colleagues insist that we should let bygones be bygones. The question, they say, is what we do now. But they're wrong: it's crucial that those responsible for the war be held to account.

                    Let me explain. The United States will soon have to start reducing force levels in Iraq, or risk seeing the volunteer Army collapse. Yet the administration and its supporters have effectively prevented any adult discussion of the need to get out.

                    On one side, the people who sold this war, unable to face up to the fact that their fantasies of a splendid little war have led to disaster, are still peddling illusions: the insurgency is in its "last throes," says Dick Cheney. On the other, they still have moderates and even liberals intimidated: anyone who suggests that the United States will have to settle for something that falls far short of victory is accused of being unpatriotic.

                    We need to deprive these people of their ability to mislead and intimidate. And the best way to do that is to make it clear that the people who led us to war on false pretenses have no credibility, and no right to lecture the rest of us about patriotism.

                    The good news is that the public seems ready to hear that message - readier than the media are to deliver it. Major media organizations still act as if only a small, left-wing fringe believes that we were misled into war, but that "fringe" now comprises much if not most of the population.

                    In a Gallup poll taken in early April - that is, before the release of the Downing Street Memo - 50 percent of those polled agreed with the proposition that the administration "deliberately misled the American public" about Iraq's W.M.D. In a new Rasmussen poll, 49 percent said that Mr. Bush was more responsible for the war than Saddam Hussein, versus 44 percent who blamed Saddam.

                    Once the media catch up with the public, we'll be able to start talking seriously about how to get out of Iraq.

                    E-mail: krugman@nytimes.com


                    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                    • Originally posted by Oerdin
                      Krugman has a pretty good take on the Downing Street memos and Bush's rush to war.
                      Actually, no. I've seen better from our local tabloid newspapers and they are pretty low. All I can see is some vicious Bush bashing and a reprint of what others may have said.

                      Sorry to say it, but to me it seems that the gun is cold and it is because it has never been fired.
                      With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                      Steven Weinberg

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                      • So you are claiming that Bush & all didn't lie and deliberately mislead people in order to go to war?
                        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                        • Originally posted by Oerdin
                          So you are claiming that Bush & all didn't lie and deliberately mislead people in order to go to war?
                          Yup.

                          All these alleged "lies" that are supposed to have been told are mostly based upon facts that has been revealed after the war, where they before the war was posibilities.
                          With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                          Steven Weinberg

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                          • Originally posted by BlackCat


                            Yup.

                            All these alleged "lies" that are supposed to have been told are mostly based upon facts that has been revealed after the war, where they before the war was posibilities.
                            Whilst I am non-commital about the status of the "lies" the facts that are revealed after the war are facts revealed to the public. Many of them would have been known, or expected to be known, by/to those 'in the know'. i.e the Bush adminisitration.
                            One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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                            • Well, I might be a lone wolf when I think that the socalled proof that seems to be revealed in these documents isn't a smoking gun.

                              Unless I'm wrong, then it is the fact documented by these papers that the bush admin had made a descision to go to war that pisses folks here off.

                              But really, what does this fact prove ?

                              Does it prove that nothing could prevent the war ? No.
                              Does it prove that Bush got a hard on the thought of going to war ? No (this is only mentioned because some think that its the reason Bush wanted a war ).
                              Are there any mention of securing oil fields for us benefit ? No.
                              Are there any mention about us companies that are going to benefit from Iraq rebuild ? No.

                              What it states is that in us opinion there is no chance to get a peaceful solution and that us is preparing for this.

                              The US point of view is based upon more or less reliable intelligence (time has shown that it was less) - it has even been proved that intelligence wasn't very certain about WMD's existence, but there is a lot of difference betwen certainity and probability. It is easy now to say how things really were against the situation where you have to guess (spare me please for any arguments about they should have known better - they couldn't)

                              Another thing against this smoking gun is that you have to make a descicion for planning at some point - if you don't, then you end up with an army with no goal, no planning and soldiers at the wrong place and that if there are enough.

                              As a soldier I would have been very scared if there haven't been support from the top and a long time of planning before an attack.

                              This is why I think that theses documents in no way are a smoking gun, even not a fired one.
                              With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                              Steven Weinberg

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                              • If any question why we died,
                                tell them,
                                because our fathers lied.'

                                - Rudyard Kipling
                                Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

                                Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

                                Comment

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