Bolivia on the verge of revolution?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Last Conformist Expecting me to accept a Marxist definition of capitalism?

It's not like Marx had anything to do with the original definition of the term.

[lord of the mark]

"Brazil, too, had considered increasing its reliance on Bolivian gas, but the recent turmoil and the discovery of a new gas field near the industrial city of São Paulo is leading the government to reconsider its options.

Highlighting that reluctance, Argentina and Brazil are expected to sign an agreement later this week with Chile and Uruguay to study the feasibility of building a $2.5 billion pipeline to bring Peruvian gas into their countries, bypassing Bolivia.

The new gas laws have already led several companies to announce delays in current and future investments. Brazilian giant Petrobras, for instance, says it may postpone plans for a $1.3 billion natural gas facility on the Bolivia-Brazil border. Estimates have put the total cost of delayed or canceled projects at $10 billion."

So much for international leftist solidarity. Evidently the Lula govt in Brazil doesnt have much patience with this sort of thing.

[Kidlicious]

Since no one has provided any evidence on Bolivia being a kleptocracty I decided to check into it.

According to Transperancy International none of the recent leaders of Bolivia are on the top ten kleptocrats list. Sorry, try another bald assertion.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I don't think South Korea, Taiwan, or Thailand do, but I'm willing to be wrong. Also, Thailand ain't a republic, it's a monarchy. Anyway, Taiwan and SK are democratic today, as recently as ten years ago, they weren't or were just barely. The Asian tigers prove that neither democracy nor the free market are necessary to develop a country.

In fact, in the modern era, the free market does more to harm 3rd World countries, since their economy is not developed for their own needs but for the needs of international capitalism. Any country that wants to develop should tell Oerdin, Vel, the IMF, Maggie Thatcher, etc. to shove it, and adopt the Asian method.

while the asian tigers all had some degree of central planning, they also were open to the market, invited foreign investment, and IIUC, maintained relatively stable currencies. They are counter examples against a libertarian view of free markets - they are NOT counter examples against either IMF policies or globalization in general.

oh and they all had a strong commitment to the rule of law in the ecomic sphere, which is what I think Vel was driving at.

[Agathon]

Evidently the Lula govt in Brazil doesnt have much patience with this sort of thing.

The Lula government is largely a joke.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon

Evidently the Lula govt in Brazil doesnt have much patience with this sort of thing.

The Lula government is largely a joke.

Its not an example of the emergence of anti-US leftism? I guess said phenomenon is not as widespread as some here implied.

[pchang]

It may be, but they don't count since Lula doesn't do everything the way Agathon wants him to do things.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Its not an example of the emergence of anti-US leftism? I guess said phenomenon is not as widespread as some here implied.

No. It's a compromise – a Latin American version of Blairism really.

Chavez is a fundamentally different beast – he identifies himself and his policies as revolutionary, but even he isn't anywhere near what some of the Bolivans want. Fidel is probably closer to them.

At the moment, it seems that the Bolivian movement is increasingly Guevarist. Whether it stays that way is anyone's guess. Given my poor track record at predicting what will happen there, I'm not going to make a definite prediction.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by pchang
It may be, but they don't count since Lula doesn't do everything the way Agathon wants him to do things.

Pray tell, what would that be?

The difference is that Lula is a reformist and not a revolutionary. He seeks to modify a capitalist economy to provide better treatment for the poor. He's still playing the neoliberal game, even though his opponents might question some of his moves. Chavez is different – he is playing the game as far as it suits him, but his aims are more revolutionary. The Bolivian protesters want the whole Enchilada.

That's a difference of fact. I would tend to side with the latter two, but that doesn't change the facts.

[chequita guevara]

Without a vangaurd organization to take the revolution to its next step, it will not go anwhere. If the current government collapses, and nothing exists to replace it, the old elite will regain and retain power.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Since no one has provided any evidence on Bolivia being a kleptocracty I decided to check into it.

According to Transperancy International none of the recent leaders of Bolivia are on the top ten kleptocrats list. Sorry, try another bald assertion.

Why would a leader of Bolivia be in the top ten?

[Kidlicious]

Why so much hostility Kuciwalker?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Without a vangaurd organization to take the revolution to its next step, it will not go anwhere. If the current government collapses, and nothing exists to replace it, the old elite will regain and retain power.

I'm not so sure. The militant unions and other groups are already involved. It's up to them to work things out if that happens. Given the fact that chaos is unlikely to make the life of the average Bolivian much worse than it currently is, I give them a fair bit of time to sort things out.

But if you feel strongly that this is the case, catch a plane there. I'd love to be wearing "Chegitz" T-Shirts and buying posters of you and beer with your ugly mug printed on the bottle in twenty years time.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Agathon


It's not just anti-US. It is anti-imperialist. Most people in the third world don't see why their countries should be run for the benefit of people living Europe and North America. I think their case is unanswerable in that regard.

And unfortunately, too many Americans are baffled as to why people of other counttries do not want foreign government to interfere with their economy and government affairs.

Would we Americans like to be in the same situation as Latim Americans? Would we like to live in a United States where a powerful, foreign nation consantly finds subtle and not-so subtle means to interfere with our own internal affairs?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Agathon
The militant unions and other groups are already involved.

If these groups are capable of taking the revolution to its next step, then they are the vanguard organizations. A Leninist party is not the only possible vanguard, just the most probable.


Hmmm, chegitz t-shirts . . .