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Um, you don't have to be a racist to oppose Turkey's entering the EU. Not that this has much to do with whether or not to favour the constitution.
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65% of the Non voters didn't care about Turkey.Originally posted by Ned
So, in the end, the real reason that the French voted "non" was racist? (Turkey.)"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- DisComment
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I think we know what the Fox News spin was this time
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In any event, congrats to the no side. The constitution was a monstrosity and there's no harm in regrouping and writing another one from scratch. The world will not end. The EU will not be weaker for this. A decade or two of deliberation and negotiations for a durable constitution is well worth it.
However people spin it (anti-liberalism, anti-Turkey, etc.), the fact remains that the voters were voting on accepting a particular constitution -- oui ou non -- and not on those other things. It seems likely to me that after the dust settles, the truth that this constitution was a bad one and that is why it was rejected will be clear.Last edited by DanS; May 30, 2005, 13:29.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Everyone in france had his reasons why he rejected it but in the end i think what made the most difference is the state of french economy and the need of people to react to that through the means of rejecting the consitution. now we'll have a 65% or something rejection from holland and R.I.P constitution.Comment
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This is a spin as much as any other. The Non was very diverse, and there isn't one single cause (or one really obvious cause) to it.Originally posted by DanS
However people spin it (anti-liberalism, anti-Turkey, etc.), the fact remains that the voters were voting on accepting a particular constitution -- oui ou non -- and not on those other things. It seems likely to me that after the dust settles, the truth that this constitution was a bad one and that is why it was rejected will be clear."I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- DisComment
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Vive la France
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Originally posted by Ned
I still am not clear why the French left dislikes the Constitution. I understand from reading a blurb on CNN that the economic and social clauses are unchanged from the current "constitution."
The French Left wants a real Constitution. One that can be taught to schoolkids. One that people can be proud of. Constitutions should not be long or detailed, because Constitutions are supposed to be hard to change.
The US Constitution does not talk of markets. Why should the EU Constitution do so?
The Non vote rejected gluing the current three treaties together, stamping the mess "Constitution", and moving on to other things.
(Actually, all the constitution does is to repeat economic language used in a series of earlier treaties that it codifies. But perception is everything in politics.)"
Economic language should not be codified. It should be legislated.Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.comComment
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[quote]
Crap, and I count solely on Fox to bring the nuances of French politics to me. Where can I turn now?[/quote
"Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito MussoliniComment
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And 46.4% of all statistics are false...Originally posted by Spiffor
The EU is responsible for 70% of France's law. Even though the French law is decided in Paris/Brussels, it applies in Polynesia.
I´ve heard those figures bandied about a lot by the press. But on closer inspection those figures are not very solid at all.
Some legal areas do have a high percentage of EU based regulations some are lower are none at all. I have no doubt that one or two areas have a high EU law content (could be a bit higher for France seeing they´ve brought a fair bit of France oriented regulations ). When journos and writers quote that figure, they´re only referring to one particular area, not the whole.
This EU regulation thingy actually ain´t that bad because it all also means that EU citizens and businesses can move, work and operate in another EU member state. You would still have to deal with local regulation but you can fall back on the general EU law (probably also useful for getting compensation in case you get hit by a car driven by a Frenchman).
Last edited by CapTVK; May 30, 2005, 15:47.Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.
Elie A. Shneour Skeptical InquirerComment
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70% of french citizens living in switzerland voted yes to the constitution."Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito MussoliniComment
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I remember the Economist printed their idea of an EU constitution years ago, well before the phrase started floating around the general political circles. I'll see if I can find it.Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard DawkinsComment
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Originally posted by Starchild
I remember the Economist printed their idea of an EU constitution years ago, well before the phrase started floating around the general political circles. I'll see if I can find it.
The economist has been anti-constitution* the moment the ink was dry. Must have been jealous theirs wasn´t chosen.
*Still read it though, although I feel their quality has been slipping a bit lately
Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.
Elie A. Shneour Skeptical InquirerComment
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Well, I've found the links to the Economist's "own version" which I actually quite liked when I read it. But my subscription ran dry ages ago so I can't get to the full text
Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard DawkinsComment
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Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard DawkinsComment
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