Communism's Good Ideas?

[chequita guevara]

DbtS, those countries may have been called socialist, but they were not. They were very much capitalist countries, just with extensive welfare states. No communist society has yet existed.

[DeathByTheSword]

for ME socialisme is taking care of the people in a country...and it has nothing to do with how you run your economy so i am still right

[Az]

Originally posted by Spiffor
"Socialist" countries: countries that had a revolution whose agenda was to overthrow capitalism. Also, countries that joined the soviet bloc, because of invasion or because of convenience (Cuba).

If you define socialist countries as countries after revolution, and then you complain that revolutions create dictatorships, does that mean that you think that all socialist countries by nature are dictatorial ?

"Dictatorship": system where power belongs to one or a few persons, who are not accountable to the people.

I hate to play with turds here, but define "accountable to the people".

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Az
I hate to play with turds here, but define "accountable to the people".

By that definition, Cuba isn't a dictatorship, since the Cuban government is very accountable, though not in the ways we traditionally associate with democracy in the West.

#1, the local level of government is open to all, party memebership is not a requirement.

#2, members of higher levels of the government are picked by the level immediately below it, though all levels above the local require party membership.

#3, the government changes policies rapidly to deal with the needs of the Cuban people

#4, there are numerous associations for Cubans that have a lot of impact on the Cuban government, such as women and youth associations, trade unions, etc. While leadership is often in the hands of party members, they do not consider themselves part of the government, and I have seen footage of these people criticising Castro and the government in person

#5, Castro personally meets with many people at all levels of Cuban society. He solicits their opinion, and it isn't like in the U.S., where only hand-picked sycophants are allowed to address the President. It's more like a British town-hall meeting, though I haven't heard anyone call Castro a liar.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Az
DBTS: people actually agree on poly after an argument quite often. You give poly too little credit.

I agree

[DeathByTheSword]

that doesnt count BeBro it wasnt an argument yet!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It's more like a British town-hall meeting, though I haven't heard anyone call Castro a liar.

They usually end up in jail.

[Ned]

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Originally posted by chegitz guevara


No. Once Stalin took control of the USSR, he used the Comintern to mold every Communist Party in the world in the CPSU's image. Factions were ousted, independent leaders expelled or murdered, cronies put inpositions of power, etc. Every Communist Party that has taken power since has been one of Stalin's robots. That culture took deep roots, even in parties where Stalin's dictat was ignored, such as in Mao's Communist Party.

Only where the CP has not been a part of the government, basically Nicaragua, do you see a revolutionary socialist government that is not a dictatorship. Until Stalin's grip is purged from Communism, it will continue to be a problem.

When Hitler was telling his people that Stalin had changed into a good guy in 1939, this is what he was referring to. He said that Stalin was no longer trying to take over other countries by using his control of their communist parties. Without that effort, he said, communism was "benign."

I suspect he was wrong, and either found out later that he was wrong or just admitted (to himself only) that Stalin was lying to him.

[Ned]

I take it, Che, that you endorse Castro's form of communist dictatorship.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that the US becomes a dictatorship exactly in the Cuban mold, but with Dear Leader in charge. Would you like that?

[chequita guevara]

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Originally posted by Ned
I suspect he was wrong, and either found out later that he was wrong or just admitted (to himself only) that Stalin was lying to him.

I suspect he was lying to cover for his opportunism. After all, he'd just signed an alliance with the Soviets. That would be like al-Qaeda joining forces with Bush. They'd both have to do a lot of spinning to avoid be killed by their own followers.

Be that as it may, the Comintern and the Communist Parties of the world, once in Stalin's hands, were no longer about spreading revolution. They became instruments of Soviet foreign policy, used to pressure various countries in to doing what the Soviets wanted or at least keeping them out of Stalin's hair. That happened in the mid to late 20s.

[Az]

In parallel to the crushing of dissent back home.

My grandfather left the Che-Ka right on time...

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
I take it, Che, that you endorse Castro's form of communist dictatorship.

Endorse, no. It's still a dictatorship and I would prefer democracy. But as dictatorships go, it could be a lot worse. Heck, there are more oppresive democracies in Latin America.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that the US becomes a dictatorship exactly in the Cuban mold, but with Dear Leader in charge. Would you like that?

If by Dear Leader, you mean Kim Jong Il, no, I would not like that. Dictatorships depend heavily on the personality of the dictator. Kim thinks he is the son of a god and that the revolution exists to glorify him. Castro is the exact opposite. He thinks he is the savior of Cuba, and that only he can save Cuba. I hope you can understand the difference. One's a patriot, the other is a tyrant. They are both megalomaniacs and dictators, however.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by Ned
I take it, Che, that you endorse Castro's form of communist dictatorship.

Endorse, no. It's still a dictatorship and I would prefer democracy. But as dictatorships go, it could be a lot worse. Heck, there are more oppresive democracies in Latin America.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that the US becomes a dictatorship exactly in the Cuban mold, but with Dear Leader in charge. Would you like that?

If by Dear Leader, you mean Kim Jong Il, no, I would not like that. Dictatorships depend heavily on the personality of the dictator. Kim thinks he is the son of a god and that the revolution exists to glorify him. Castro is the exact opposite. He thinks he is the savior of Cuba, and that only he can save Cuba. I hope you can understand the difference. One's a patriot, the other is a tyrant. They are both megalomaniacs and dictators, however.

Well, how do you know in advance which kind of man will be the "leader?" Castro or Dear Leader or Stalin or Hitler?

I hope you see the problem if you get it wrong.

[chequita guevara]

Hence my point about wanting democracy, Ned.