Communism's Good Ideas?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Admit it, you are redefining 'dictatorship of the proletariat' so it sounds good to others.

I'm defining it the way Marx did.

When the Paris Commune happened, Marx pointed to it and said, "There is the dictatorship of the proletariat."

[chequita guevara]

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Originally posted by BeBro
Self proclaimed dictatorship - > you could experience dictatorial effects

Self proclaimed democracy - > you could not experience democratic effects

They lied about being a democracy. They lied about being a dictatorship of the proletariat. But because they were a dictatorship, you believe they were telling the truth about being being of the proletariat.

[Spiffor]

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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
They lied about being a democracy. They lied about being a dictatorship of the proletariat. But because they were a dictatorship, you believe they were telling the truth about being being of the proletariat.

They did replace the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie though.

[chequita guevara]

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Originally posted by Spiffor
They did replace the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie though.

Yes, with a dictatorship of the bureaucracy.

My first commie group, Spark (the American grouplet following Lutte Ouvrier) refers to these states as "bourgeoiuse states without a bourgeoisie." To them, the dictatorship of the bourgoisie still reigned, there was just no bougeoisie.

[BeBMan]

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Originally posted by chegitz guevara




They lied about being a democracy. They lied about being a dictatorship of the proletariat. But because they were a dictatorship, you believe they were telling the truth about being being of the proletariat.

No, that was my point from the beginning, that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" was just a propaganda tool for a party elite.

Doesn't change the fact that it was a dictatorship.

[chequita guevara]

Okay.

[DeathByTheSword]

hell has frose over 2 people actually agree on poly with eachother after a debate

[Az]

DBTS: people actually agree on poly after an argument quite often. You give poly too little credit.

[DeathByTheSword]

give me a thread where it happens besides this one and i will AGREE with you

[Spiffor]

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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yes, with a dictatorship of the bureaucracy.

Doesn't it strike you as strange that each and every socialist country turned into a dictatorship? Even those who weren't directly under soviet pressure (I'm thinking of Titist Yugoslavia and of post-Stalin's China). Quite a few countries had their revolution, and they turned into a dictatorship well on their own. In some cases, like Mao's China, it was a dictatorship of an individual, rather than of a whole class (the bureaucracy was purges as often as the common folk).

When you begin with violent overthrowings, and violent denying of political rights (which is exactly what happens when a "dictatorship of the proletariat" is declared, even in ideal terms: you make political losers (bourgeois) by the million), who says where it will stop?

[Az]

define "socialist" country, and define "dictatorship".

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az
define "socialist" country, and define "dictatorship".

"Socialist" countries: countries that had a revolution whose agenda was to overthrow capitalism. Also, countries that joined the soviet bloc, because of invasion or because of convenience (Cuba).

"Dictatorship": system where power belongs to one or a few persons, who are not accountable to the people.

[chequita guevara]

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Originally posted by Spiffor
Doesn't it strike you as strange that each and every socialist country turned into a dictatorship?

No. Once Stalin took control of the USSR, he used the Comintern to mold every Communist Party in the world in the CPSU's image. Factions were ousted, independent leaders expelled or murdered, cronies put inpositions of power, etc. Every Communist Party that has taken power since has been one of Stalin's robots. That culture took deep roots, even in parties where Stalin's dictat was ignored, such as in Mao's Communist Party.

Only where the CP has not been a part of the government, basically Nicaragua, do you see a revolutionary socialist government that is not a dictatorship. Until Stalin's grip is purged from Communism, it will continue to be a problem.

[DeathByTheSword]

change socialist countries in to communist countries please...

sweden and back in the day the netherlands were socialist countries and cant remember any thing about overthrowing governments

[Spiffor]

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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Only where the CP has not been a part of the government, basically Nicaragua, do you see a revolutionary socialist government that is not a dictatorship. Until Stalin's grip is purged from Communism, it will continue to be a problem.

Good explanation.