Communism's Good Ideas?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Che:

The dictatorship of the proletariat, even in an ideal democratic form (i.e one where parties freely compete for power) would still be extremely imperfect, as a part of the population (namely, the bourgeois, and the many middle-class people who wouldn't bve considered as proles) would be out of the loop politically.

They can have representation proportional to their percentage of the population, with the caveat they can't use their wealth and power to influence the election. They can have an equal voice to another man, woman, (and if OzzyKP gets his way) or child. They can't own the government though. If that puts them out of the loop, too bad. Better than than the majority being out of the loop.

[Lancer]

nm

[DaShi]

The best idea to come out of Communism is "Give up on Communism."

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
They can have representation proportional to their percentage of the population, with the caveat they can't use their wealth and power to influence the election. They can have an equal voice to another man, woman, (and if OzzyKP gets his way) or child. They can't own the government though. If that puts them out of the loop, too bad. Better than than the majority being out of the loop.

Admit it, you are redefining 'dictatorship of the proletariat' so it sounds good to others.

[Dracon II]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Admit it, you are redefining 'dictatorship of the proletariat' so it sounds good to others.

That may be so. But nonetheless, Che's model is the ideal model for a post-revolutionary regime. If Marx's theory of history is to be taken seriously, a post-revolutionary regime can only see the bourgeoisie as a class that attempted to make the best of its own situation given the dominant material conditions of the time. They should be treated humanely. A regime that only inverses the perceived oppression of the previous era is not one to be taken seriously. Grievances should be rectified, but not out of revenge but out of the desire to progress society to a better level. The lives and liberty of the former bourgeoisie (though not necessarily their property) should be preserved, and they should be given a meaningful and satisfying role in the new system. At any rate, I don't support the dictatorship of the proletariat any more than I support the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

[Dracon II]

Another thing. Marxism is a broad church, and there is far from just one single interpretation on how it works and how it should be put into practice. Thus, there is nothing problematic in Che's (re)definition of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Marxism is currently experiencing an historical lowpoint and a position of almost permanent opposition. If there is to be any point in its history where careful reflection and redefinition of its programme is required, it is right now.

In any case, I find the periodic redefinition of liberalism in the USA to be far more problematic.

[Az]

Re: Communism's Good Ideas?

The good ideas are:

Originally posted by Ned
2) free love, marriage is oppression of women;

Eh, well, a drastic change from what went on in the 19th century was very beneficial. However, prudishness still roams the earth and it still the order of the day for billions on our planet.

3) from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

A great idea, and a very correct one - now comes the question of how to exploit everyone's full ability.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

Excellent idea. Worked in our country for decades. ( Now they want to privatize it - just because )

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

They're trying cut it back now - another reason why even a crappy SU around was better for the world than none.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Very correct . It's also hypocritical to support from the side of all the "meritocratic" capitalism supporters - it goes against the core of that idea. I think that people should get the houses of their parents under very good financial conditions, since they have much personal value for them, if they wish.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Yep

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Not one bank, but a series of state banks. Otherwise, we're putting all of our eggs in the same basket. - again, this has worked in Israel for a couple of decades - again, it's being destroyed.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

Damn, yes, without any doubt.
Competition in public transport is the most assinine idea ever. Same in communication. Same in utilities.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Yes. The latter to be done under the prinicples of it being economically worthwile.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Yes to part I, No to part II.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

Yes to I, and it has already happened. part II is wrong, since it doesn't let us keep large part of the enviroment tamely wild.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

[GePap]

Oh, for Gods sake!

Marxism is a subset of communism, not the be all and end all.

So, are we discussing the good ideas of Marxism, or of communism in general, or of communitarianism?

Oh, and plase, lets keep the Leninist ideas out (All communist states that actually took power were either Leninist or Maoist. None was Marxist, since a revolutionary vanguard trying to build Communism actively does not mesh with a notion that the workers's state is the inevitable outcome of the dialectic of history and wil happen at the end, in the most advanced societies).

[Kidlicious]

Re: Re: Communism's Good Ideas?

Originally posted by Az

3) from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

A great idea, and a very correct one - now comes the question of how to exploit everyone's full ability.

[Frankychan]

Wow, another right-wing troll thread by Ned...what WONT I see next...

[BeBMan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Communism's Good Ideas?

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


That doesn't answer my question. They called themselves a democracy and you disagree. They said they were the dictatorship of the proletariet, and you believe them. Why are they wrong in the first, but not wrong in the second? Why do you assume they were telling the truth at all?

What I wrote answered the question perfectly.

Self proclaimed dictatorship - > you could experience dictatorial effects

Self proclaimed democracy - > you could not experience democratic effects

Ergo I have enough reasons for my judgement.

[DeathByTheSword]

Originally posted by Frankychan
Wow, another right-wing troll thread by Ned...what WONT I see next...

99% of these guys getting laid

[Dracon II]

I would certainly hope that Frankychan won't be seeing me get laid. I'm not into that sort of thing.... I pity the 1% that are gonna be getting his loins dancing.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Dracon II
I would certainly hope that Frankychan won't be seeing me get laid. I'm not into that sort of thing.... I pity the 1% that are gonna be getting his loins dancing.

We have a porn actor here. I think he's the 1%

[MikeH]

Is this about my signature?