Noah Built a Boat?

[Vesayen]

1. In those days there were fewer animals, micro-evolution has made the total animal population in this world as it is. There was no need for God to save any kind of animal. One animal per family would do the thing.

*sigh*. We need a constitutional ban on creationalists but that would be descriminatory so I suppose against willfull stupidity would do the trick.... I don't think I need to point out the stupidity of saying all the species on the planet have come from 6,000 years of micro evolution..... we *HAVE* the dimensions of the arc, its in the torah! It is big but its not huge-we have far bigger ships today.

2. dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible. Though most translators in the middle ages didn't knew what to think about these strange creatures they didn't know. They mostly translated it with 'snake' or 'dragon'. Search for 'dinosaurs' and 'bible' in google and you'll find a list.

No they don't. There are only 3 or 4 mentions of snake in the torah-only 2 I can think of.... "serpent" int he garden, and literal snakes in pharos court... "Leviathon" from genisis is a description of a water animal, which is made very clear, unless you somehow translate "depths" which is used in context to water to mean the dinosaurs are all living deep under water......

3. sea animals didn't need to get into the arc.

Except for every fresh water species on the planet. WATER is not water. There are hundreds of different habitats within water water, even in the ocean.

4. much animals can get into some kind of a winter-sleep so they don't need food or care for a long time.

Most animals, do *NOT* hibernate-that is a cop out.

5. it's not needed to take large mature animals into the arc. Small children are enough. Take dinosaurs in examle, they are very small when they're young.

The space requirment, even for a limited number of species and the food for 40 days, is impossible, especially since we know how big the arc was.....

6. The reason for the big flood was sin that had spread all over the earth, and perhaps because of the demons that had bred children with women (genesis 6 1-4)

Could you possibly mangle the translation any more?

7. the author of the book (who's 3 times prof overhere in Holland, prof. dr. dr. Ouweneel, do a google search if you want to know more) explained how it all would be possible to build such an arc.

Yes and its size as well-impossibly small.

but there are no problems for the flood story.

If I call you a willfully stupid moron, will this count as flaming, even though it is obviously true?

[Boris Godunov]

Ah, here's a review of the book I was thinking of:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/woodmorappe-review.html

Woodmorappe (which is someone's pseudonym, actually) made the same claims Cyber Shy's Dutch fellow is making (I wonder if the Dutchie plagiarized, because none of the claims he made appear original).

At any rate, the review shows why it's a bunch of unscientific crap that wouldn't pass muster in undergraduate science courses.

[Boris Godunov]

The ark as described in the Bible was about 450 feet long. It would be pretty impossible for someone to build a seaworthy ship totally out of wood that size. The length of time it would take to build it with a handful of people would be enormous, and the wood would keep rotting in parts before other parts were finished. Especially if Creationists want to claim the world was totally tropical in climate with a "vapor canopy" (an impossible hypothesis in and of itself). Dead wood wouldn't last long enough to complete the ship.

And a wooden ship 450 long would snap into pieces under the pressure of a a deluge that was big enough to flood the world in 40 days.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Vesayen
I'm not denying most of the planet has a flood myth(the mediteranean(sp?) areas people likley from when the caspian sea BROKE...).

I guess that you mean the Black Sea

Many cultures has probably started in river areas (water, plenty of fertile land etc), and rivers has a tendency to flood the surroundings from time to time, so it is no wonder that many cultures has myths about such events.

[Hueij]

... prof. dr. dr. Ouweneel

Professor of what and where does he teach if I may ask? I couldn't find that on Google...

[Boris Godunov]

10-1 it's a degree from a diploma mill or theology school and he works for some creationist/religious organization.

[Hueij]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
10-1 it's a degree from a diploma mill or theology school and he works for some creationist/religious organization.

Actually, he was promoted in Biology at the University of Utrecht, promoted in Philosophy at the Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam and promoted in Theology at Bloemfontein (South Africa). It doesn't look like he is not extremely intelligent I'm afraid.

OTOH he is not very bright since he is teaching at the "Evangelische Hogeschool", some fundy semi-university. I doubt if that school is officially recognised as a university, therefor the use of the title "professor" is wrong.

From what I gathered from Google he is a fundy crackpot...

[Robert]

Biology, theology and one I forgot about.
Boris: you make your good arguments look weak by writing lines like "10-1 it's a degree from a diploma mill or theology school and he works for some creationist/religious organization." about somebody you don't know.

Further, Boris, I just gave a list of arguments I read somewhere long ago. I can't reply on your arguments since I have no knowledge about it.
You know these arguments exist. You know that there are arguments against your counter-arguments as well.

Of course it's easy to talk from a great height upon all 'creationists'. I feel little symphathy for your approach. My father always used to say that the person who yelled the loudest was most probably wrong. Unfortunately my sister and me found out that he was right most of the time.

If your opinion is that good, don't spoil it by being an arrogant bastard.

Oh, I can add little more to my arguments. I forgot to mention that the authors of the book (if I'm correct there were more authors) claimed that before the flood the world was one landmass with one climate all over the world. This climate was a result of the big water holding ring around the world. The flood was such a cathastrophe that the landmasses started to move after it. The removal of all water from the ring around the world may be the reason for extinction of many life forms. ie. the dinosaurs.

The Levithian is indeed an example of a dinosaur in the bible. if I'm correct the animal in the garden of eden was such a creature as well. A water dinosaur indeed.
There's a mention of a huge animal in isaiah or job as well that's being described as very huge, with a tail as long as a huge tree etc. The description is something that's really not some kind of animal we know about.

About micro-evolution in such a 'short' time.....
It's really funny that it's the evolutionist group who's always claiming that evolution will happen in a shorter period then creationists think, and now our roles have changed 180 degrees

I'll see if I still have the book I was talking about and can answer some questions from it.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Hueij

Actually, he was promoted in Biology at the University of Utrecht, promoted in Philosophy at the Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam and promoted in Theology at Bloemfontein (South Africa). It doesn't look like he is not extremely intelligent I'm afraid.

OTOH he is not very bright since he is teaching at the "Evangelische Hogeschool", some fundy semi-university. I doubt if that school is officially recognised as a university, therefor the use of the title "professor" is wrong.

From what I gathered from Google he is a fundy crackpot...

Intelligence/brigthness doesn't matter if you are hit by the religious virus - it protects against it but there isn't a gurantee.

[Robert]

From what I gathered from Google he is a fundy crackpot...

He may be not more or less fundy in his opinion then Boris or you are in yours. Though you both haven't been promoted 3 times at 3 different universities

But I'll say it again: if someone has not been promoted or isn't scientific enough: blame him for that.
If someone apparantly is inteligent enough, just call him a fundy crackpot. Easy way to go hueij.

In fact it just all falls under the: "If someone disagrees with me he must be a fool" way of reasoning the people in the middle ages were famous for.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Biology, theology and one I forgot about.
Boris: you make your good arguments look weak by writing lines like "10-1 it's a degree from a diploma mill or theology school and he works for some creationist/religious organization." about somebody you don't know.

Since that usually is the case, it's a valid guess.

Further, Boris, I just gave a list of arguments I read somewhere long ago. I can't reply on your arguments since I have no knowledge about it.

That resembles pretty much those from Kansa who hadn't bothered to read the papers invloved (another current thread).

You know these arguments exist. You know that there are arguments against your counter-arguments as well.

And they are shot down in the same manner, often they consist in being proved by the words of the bible.

Of course it's easy to talk from a great height upon all 'creationists'. I feel little symphathy for your approach. My father always used to say that the person who yelled the loudest was most probably wrong. Unfortunately my sister and me found out that he was right most of the time.

As I see it, it's the ID/creationists that are yelling, and the science side that quietly dismantle their claims.

Oh, I can add little more to my arguments. I forgot to mention that the authors of the book (if I'm correct there were more authors) claimed that before the flood the world was one landmass with one climate all over the world. This climate was a result of the big water holding ring around the world. The flood was such a cathastrophe that the landmasses started to move after it. The removal of all water from the ring around the world may be the reason for extinction of many life forms. ie. the dinosaurs.¨

The amount of energy needed to make such an rearrangement of the continents would be enourmous and I have very big problems seeing that a mere nutshell as the arc would have been could have survived such a cataclysmic disaster.

About micro-evolution in such a 'short' time.....
It's really funny that it's the evolutionist group who's always claiming that evolution will happen in a shorter period then creationists think, and now our roles have changed 180 degrees

Please explain - it doesn't make sense.

[Pekka]

Noah Noah Noah.. what have you done now.. maybe it happened, maybe it didn't, but I still think my point on bible not being accurate is stronger now.

I find it weird that some religion people find this disgusting and wrong beyond words, it seems to me their faith is based on this thing and if something is proven wrong, their faith would be based on.... 0? ****.. my faith is stronger than that. It doesn't mean you are not allowed to think yourself..

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Pekka
Noah Noah Noah.. what have you done now.. maybe it happened, maybe it didn't, but I still think my point on bible not being accurate is stronger now.

Oh, the bible is quite accurate, just as the storyline in SMAC/X , but that doesn't make it a true description. (I know, I know, the storyline in SMAC/X is under great debate but it is a good parallel).

I find it weird that some religion people find this disgusting and wrong beyond words, it seems to me their faith is based on this thing and if something is proven wrong, their faith would be based on.... 0? ****.. my faith is stronger than that. It doesn't mean you are not allowed to think yourself..

One of the main requriements joining a religion is to stop thinking for yourself. If you start to ask questions about the fundament of the religion, then you are nothing than a heretic.

[Robert]

Nah, if you believe or not believe in the great flood means nothing about if someone is a christian or not.

Jesus didn't say: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him and in the flood should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I'm not sure if the great flood has happened or not. It doesn't matter much to my believe system either. I believe in Jesus, as in: I trust my life to Jesus.
Though what is important to me is that todays scientists are too full of themselves. And indeed, some ID/creationists are too full of themselves as well.

I think we should be a little more humble instead of all that "We from the 21st century know everything, just ask and we answer" yelling.

[Robert]

One of the main requriements joining a religion is to stop thinking for yourself. If you start to ask questions about the fundament of the religion, then you are nothing than a heretic.

So far you're more describing the atheistic requierment... the ammount of BS and yelling one gets over him when he says he doesn't believe in evolution is huuuuuge.
In fact I 'm a christian and I do really not understand where you guys get that "If you 're a christian you should stop thinking" idea from. In fact we debate and think and talk a lot in our church about all possible subjects.

Most non-christian people I know know less about most stuff then most christian people I know. But oh well, I'll getting used to non-christians who're eager to make all kinds of assumptions about christians. Just blindfolded assumptions.