Why does Britain arrest woman defending her home against pillagers?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Ned


Horse, your relative was better than that and you know it.

He executed a policeman in cold blood - go and look it up.

He also meticulously planned what would be called today a terrorist attack involving the derailing of train full of police.

This is your heroe and you worry about street yobs?

[Zulu Elephant]

From Ned's family album

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Vesayen
Rights to life trump property rights, however when you violate someones property rights, you may invalidate your own rights to life.

That does not make any sense.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Vesayen
Liberty, also up.

In civilized countries gun ownership isn't considered part of personal freedom.

[Vesayen]

Why does that not make sense? You have certain rights, such as rights to life. You loose your claim to right when you violate the property rights of another person.

Social contract and such, yes? The only rules laws and morality that exist are the ones we agree on, this model is as valid as say..... a model where this woman can have all her property destroyed with no recourse, if we agree on it.

Civilized is relative. I think a country which gives its citizens weapons to take out the goverment if it becomes oppresive is FAR more civilized then euro-com.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Vesayen


Civilized is relative. I think a country which gives its citizens weapons to take out the goverment if it becomes oppresive is FAR more civilized then euro-com.

As if the average dumb-ass Joe with a Colt will be able to stop an Abrams roving through a town anyway.

[Zulu Elephant]

Civilized is relative. I think a country which gives its citizens weapons to take out the goverment if it becomes oppresive is FAR more civilized then euro-com.

Eastern Europe didnt need guns to overthrown oppressive dictatorships. Ghandi didnt forces the British out of India through force of arms.

European countries make sure that their governments dont become oppressive by opposing oppression 'creep' and remaining sceptical of patriotism/nationalism. The citizens of the United States (and I swear Im not engaging in pointless America bashing) don't seem that bothered about giving up Liberties (patriot act) and also seem (at least to an outsider) very willing to give themselves over to patriotism/nationalism.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Um... Zulu? Patriotism/Nationalism is what the European countries used to bring down Soviet rule.

[Zulu Elephant]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Um... Zulu? Patriotism/Nationalism is what the European countries used to bring down Soviet rule.

Well firstly, the picture is nowhere near that simple. Poles didn't just wake up one morning and go "hey, we're Poles. WTF are we doing being ruled from Moscow?" and then were free. The solidarity movement, the political and economic weakness of the the USSR and a whole lot of other things happened.

Secondly, I was simply stating what I would imagine the vast majority of non-Americans see in America - a culture that, while admirably passionate about certain liberties, is on the other hand very willing to curb other liberties when they're being told its for their own good. I'd like to think that the Patriot act and Guantanamo bay would not happen, or at least be extremely unpopular if they happened in Europe.

We brits locked up a few terror suspects without trial for a while and there was a public outcry. Finally the EU stepped in and good sense prevailed.

[Imran Siddiqui]

A good deal of the solidarity movement was a patriotic one. Why do you think the Pope came out so strongly for it? Did it reach to other countries?

I'd like to think that the Patriot act and Guantanamo bay would not happen, or at least be extremely unpopular if they happened in Europe.

May I direct you to the British Terror laws enacted after 9/11? They are most probably worse than America's Patriot Act.

[Zulu Elephant]

May I direct you to the British Terror laws enacted after 9/11? They are most probably worse than America's Patriot Act.

I don't believe they were and they also had sunset clauses, something which I think the Patriot act lacked.

Seriously. Im not America bashing Im making a cultural comparison. I think Europeans are more sophisticated when thinking about their democracy. America has all sorts of checks and balances (I suppose you could even count gun ownership as a check on the government) but this tends to make it unresponsive or at least slow to respond.

Europe OTOH perhaps sails a bit closer to the wind and therefore the electorates have to be more vigilant. Its just different ways of doing things.


Off Thread Topic:

Anyway, Im off to sit the final exam of my final year of my degree now! Im sure Ill post a thread about it when I get back.

[Ted Striker]

ZOMG run for your lives pillagers!!111!!!!!!!!

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Zulu Elephant


I don't believe they were and they also had sunset clauses, something which I think the Patriot act lacked.

I believe you would think incorrectly.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
In Britain, we have this tradition called "Rag Week" where students play minor pranks such as dumping detergent in fountains, or placing traffic cones of works of municipal art.

If this took place where Ned, Sikander and Vesayen live in their trailers, what would the bodycount be?

No way to tell, as your premise that we live in trailers is faulty, as is your premise that I am advocating shooting teenagers to death for pranks. What I find wrong with the situation in Britain is the overzealous prosecution because of an underzealous appreciation of the right to defend one's self and one's property, fueled to a ridiculous degree by a pathological fear of firearms. No one was hurt in the incident nor was there intent on the part of the perpetrator to hurt anyone. The "victims" were not even frightened enough to leave the scene even after being confronted by the deadly air pistol, which in the hands of a suitably violent expert might have even put an eye out.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Dauphin
Britain needs to tighten up gun laws. This special needs teacher should never have been able to acquire the gun.

An air pistol is a much more formidable weapon when used as a club than as a "firearm". I assume that it is legal to purchase gasoline and bottles, iron pipes, knives, long pieces of wood suitable for being fashioned into spears, leather straps suitable for being fashioned into slings, heavy stones, cricket bats, automobiles, frying pans, rolling pins etc. Get to work on those more deadly implements as they seem to have a lot more potential for harm than the scourge of air pistolery.