What have we learned from Iraq?

[Dis]

What self-respecting country still uses conscription

yes, I'm baiting. what of it. It's funny Europeans badmouth us for the use of the death penalty, when they still consider enslavement of young men okay.

[Patroklos]

You are incorrect. The RG survived mostly intact from '91. Note that Hussein used it in his suppression of the Shi'ite uprising immediately following the end of the war.

Interesting as they were amoungst the number one targets.

Though I am sure whatever was left from the divisions rendered combat ineffective found its way into the efforts to rebuild the guard.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Not true at all, but the forces attacked were under UN mandate, so NATO need not be enacted.

There was no UN mandate.

There are a few UN Mandates that Iraq was in violation of, even without WMD. France, Germany and Russia were also in violation.

There was no UN mandate. There is only a UN Mandate when the UN says, "force is authroized and will be under the command of ... "

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Interesting as they were amoungst the number one targets.

Though I am sure whatever was left from the divisions rendered combat ineffective found its way into the efforts to rebuild the guard.

They may have been one of the main targets, but since the RG kept itself hidden and dispersed, there was no chance to do a "highway of death" on them. Schwartzkof had hoped to cut them off and destroy them, but they managed to escape the pincer largely intact.

Within weeks, the RG was in Southern Iraq, slaughtering the people we'd incited to revolt, while we stood across the border and watched. That is why we should have said to heck with the UN and our allies, and invaded. We owed those people our help, and we betrayed them. That is probably one of the most disgusting things our government has done in my lifetime.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Dissident
What self-respecting country still uses conscription

Almost all of them. The reason we don't is because of the problems the military had with discipline and mutinies towards the end of the Vietnam War.

[Patroklos]

There was no UN mandate.

The sanctions and no fly zones are backed by who???

[Patroklos]

We owed those people our help, and we betrayed them. That is probably one of the most disgusting things our government has done in my lifetime.

Also a UN mandate. Gotta love em.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
The sanctions and no fly zones are backed by who???

Nice how you shift the goals posts.

There was no UN Mandate to invade Iraq.

[Patroklos]

I'm pretty sure, we couldn't send 30,000 troops there. But, even if we could, what do you think would happen in Germany? I guarantee you, there'd be riots. And the government wouldn't have the parliamentary support (no party would support such a huge mission, even those that were pro-war) anyway and would likely be overthrown.

I am pretty sure you couldn't either, but not because your military isn't capable, it is a political thing. The Bunswehr has the capacity to do so, which is all I said.

B is the only one talking about actual deployment numbers, I am talking about the available pool of troops to use. Germany already has 8,000 peole deployed around the world at this moment, I bet they will get close to if not surpass 30,000 soldiers having been rotated through said areas in 5-6 years.

America has the capacity to put half a million+ soldiers in Iraq if it deemed it absolutely nessecary. Of course we don't nore is it politcally viable. As it is we are around 300,000 servicemen having been there in the last three years.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Almost all of them. The reason we don't is because of the problems the military had with discipline and mutinies towards the end of the Vietnam War.

Mutinies? Really?

[Patroklos]

There was no UN Mandate to invade Iraq.

Really, what was the verbage for not following the sanctions?

The verbage for interfereing with weapons inspections? And PLEASSSSSSE try and deny that one.

Nice how you shift the goals posts.

You asked Your tangent

[Ned]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
What have we learned from Iraq?
We allowed the President to con us into permitting him to initiate a war for a non-existant reason based upon flimsy evidence and his assurance that more solid evidence existed. We should have demanded more solid evidence that Iraq had WMD.

Conned?

Welcome to the world of Michael Moore!!!!!

[Ned]

Originally posted by lightblue
- Why should Germany or France help you guys invade another country? AFAIK the NATO agreement is to help one another in the case of a direct attack, thus the help against the Taliban. Iraq has not attacked any NATO member directly (or indirectly really discounting one or two small training camps), so that treaty does not force them to join. If there had been a solid UN mandate, based on solid proof and not evidence fabricated and enhanced by the respective press offices, then you mgiht have point. No UN mandate = no legal case to go to war for reasons you used (breaking the sanctions etc). Also keep in mind that the populations were predominantly against action, and last I checked France and Germany were democracies, and the governments are elected to carry out the will of their people not some foreign government of a country that still feels they're owed favours for something that happened 60 years ago. Get over it, I mean if you keep looking at historical ***-for-tat, you owe the French a favour as well for helping in the War of Independence etc etc.

Yes we owe France our liberty.

We could have used French and German help. The lack of a UN resolution was what blocked their support.

I wonder why the UN resolution was blocked? Humm.....

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Mutinies? Really?

Yup, really. Entire units refused to follow orders, an aircraft carrier went on strike, units killed their commanders, deserted, etc. The vast majority of soldiers and units followed orders, but this situation was getting to be worrying. It wasn't an immediate threat, but had the war gone on another five years, it could have been.

People forget that the largest segment of the anti-war movement was not made up of students but of Vietnam Vets. There is a memorable scene in the documentary, Hearts and Minds, where a "We Support Our Troops" march actually attacks and beats a group of Vietnam Vets who were protesting.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Yup, really. Entire units refused to follow orders, an aircraft carrier went on strike, units killed their commanders, deserted, etc. The vast majority of soldiers and units followed orders, but this situation was getting to be worrying. It wasn't an immediate threat, but had the war gone on another five years, it could have been.

People forget that the largest segment of the anti-war movement was not made up of students but of Vietnam Vets. There is a memorable scene in the documentary, Hearts and Minds, where a "We Support Our Troops" march actually attacks and beats a group of Vietnam Vets who were protesting.

Largest? I doubt it. The commies and SDS's were the largest.