Ford lies about fuel economy.

[Dinner]

Asher my boy. You're cute when you are being illogical. The sampling is nosatistical because it only catches responses from people who feel like writing in.. Consumer Reports is much like an internet poll which doesn't get an accurate cross section of society. The numbers are interesting but not at all correct.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Asher my boy. You're cute when you are being illogical. The sampling is nosatistical because it only catches responses from people who feel like writing in.. Consumer Reports is much like an internet poll which doesn't get an accurate cross section of society. The numbers are interesting but not at all correct.

Oerdin...if all of the brands are affected by people who "only call in if there's a problem", then it's still reasonably accurate. Especially when the samples are so large and the differences so large.

I know statistics and I know that this isn't the ideal way to do it, but it is still accurate. It not only makes sense anecdotally, it makes sense from the people I know who work in the field.

My brother is a mechanical engineer who works for a company in Ontario that designs components of cars for GM, Ford, Toyota, and Nissan. Specifically, while he was a "coop" student, he worked on the air vents of the 2006 Toyota Camry, and the 2005 Pontiac G6.

The test requirements for MTBF between the two brands was incredible.

Feel free to show me reliability statistics that you feel are more accurate and display your opinion. Otherwise, can it.

[Asher]

Guess which vehicles are rebranded Ford products in this product lineup:


OMG Oerdin, another coincidence where statistical sampling errors say Fords are noticably much worse in quality.

At what point do all of these coincidences start to correlate?

[Dinner]

The best brands on sale in the US are (defects per 100 cars):

Lexus - 162
Buick - 187
Infinity - 189
Linclon - 194
Cadalliac - 196
Honda - 209
Acura - 212
Toyota - 216
Mercury - 224
Porche - 240
Chevrolet - 262
GMC - 262
BMW - 264
Saab - 265
Saturn - 267
Industry Average - 269
Ford - 276
Nissan - 280
Chrysler - 285
Mazda - 285
Subaru - 286
Plymouth - 289
Audi - 295
Pontiac - 297
Dodge - 298
Jaguar - 310
Jeep - 314
Oldsmobile - 314
Mercedes-Benz - 327
Mitsubishi - 327
Volvo - 346
Suzuki - 365
Hyundai - 375
VW - 386
Isuzu - 393
Dawoo - 411
Kia - 432
Land Rover - 472

Land Rover has been sinking fast in the last two years and it finally took the title of worst built car away from the Koreans who've owned that title for 20 years. The Koreans still make utterly crap cars though.

[Agathon]

Maybe you should take your car to a real mechanic.
Getting just 5 MPG from you car means something is REALLY wrong

Or that someone is siphoning your gas.

[Dinner]

There are 15 car brands with above average quality. 7 are American, 5 are Japanese, 3 are European.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The best brands on sale in the US are (defects per 100 cars):

I've already pointed this out, but as someone defending Ford quality, it's apparent you need to wait a while for things to sink in.

That list is for initial quality, which has little to no correlation with long-term reliability. That tests for "defects" in the manufacturing process, while long-term reliability is a measurement for how well-designed the components actually are.

I would appreciate it if you could discuss the matter at hand, without the smoke and mirrors with red herrings thrown in for good measure...

[Verto]

Originally posted by Agathon

Maybe you should take your car to a real mechanic.
Getting just 5 MPG from you car means something is REALLY wrong

Or that someone is siphoning your gas.

Socialism at work

From everyone according to their tank capacity...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oerdin
There are 15 car brands with above average quality. 7 are American, 5 are Japanese, 3 are European.

Even if that list was for reliability -- which it is not -- this is another ridiculous example.

All this shows is the number of different "car brands" a region has. There are more American "car brands" than Japanese, for example.

That says nothing of importance, but is another attempt of you to mislead people. You clearly have no real argument here.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher
Oerdin...if all of the brands are affected by people who "only call in if there's a problem", then it's still reasonably accurate. Especially when the samples are so large and the differences so large.

That depends upon who buys what cars and which part of the country the magazine is delivered. Have you ever seen Consumer Reports questionare? It simple asks you the year of the vehicle, the model, the engine type, trans type, milage, and number of problems. Let unexplained is what exactly constitutes a problem so different expectations from different owners means some people report minor things as problems while other people only report major problems. No one has defined what is or is not a problem so we're not comparing apples to apples with Consumer Reports.

Just face the fact that Consumer Reports is interesting but entirely unscientific and I'll go away.

[Asher]

If you're going to discredit which makes sense logically and anecdotally, you're going to have to do better than that.

Find me a "fully scientific" way of measuring vehicle reliability. All of the unscientific ways unanimously show Ford being noticably bad compared to the main Japanese manufacturers, but you're insisting this all must be a magical coincidence.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher
All this shows is the number of different "car brands" a region has. There are more American "car brands" than Japanese, for example.

If nothing else it shows the Americans build very large numbers of superior quality vehicles. You've been denying that all along and even when faced with the hard facts you still quibble. It's ok if you just want to make judges based upon your own preceptions and self bias but at least be honest enough to say you don't know what your talking about and that you just prefer to follow your own bias.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher
That list is for initial quality, which has little to no correlation with long-term reliability.

BUZZZ! Wrong anwser. That survey was the "Dependability" survey which measured problems which occured over the first year of ownership. They also do a long term (3 year study) as well as the intial quality study and a costumer satisfaction study. The numbers are slightly different but the rankings are largely the same in each different study.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher
Find me a "fully scientific" way of measuring vehicle reliability.

J D Powers & Associates does.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
My family had a Ford Escort...think it was from 1982. Lasted about 10 years. Damn thing was a tank--no power steering or power breaks. I always felt like I was driving a ship.

The 1992 Honda Accord I had was the best car ever. I was very sorry to give it up when I moved to NY in 1999. Never had a single mechanical problem with it, and it handled beautifully.

Accords