Ford lies about fuel economy.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher
Your patriotism is too strong to see something objectively. That's something you need to work on.

My patriotism is to strong? Let's review the cars I've owned shall we?

1974 VW Beatle
1978 Chevrolet Monza V6
1980 VW Rabbit
1991 VW Corrado
1995 Ford Probe GT (still own)
1991 Toyota Camry V6 (still own)

Eventually I'd like to buy a nice two seater convertable which will probably be either an S2000, a Z4, or the new Lotus inspired GM two seater but I'll have to compare prices and specifications when the time comes.

Sorry Asher my boy but Patriatism is not a reason I buy cars though that doesn't stop me from pouring cold water on your obviously uninformed opinions concerning quality amoung different makes and models of cars. You've claimed Ford couldn't design an engine to save its life and you were stomped. You claimed Americans didn't make a car worth owning and you were once again proven to be wrong by the quality reports put out by companies which do scientific studies of on the matter. Lastly you claimed I was just a flag waving American and you were yet again proven to be wrong. Why not just admite your full of it and we can let the matter drop?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Sorry mate but I've already shown you the qualty figures. Why not just admite your basing your argument on your own bias

Just what is my bias? I'm a Canadian. If anything I'm biased towards Ford since I have an uncle and a cousin who work for Ford at the plant that makes the Crown Vics in St. Thomas, Ontario.

Now what is your bias? A patriotic American defending a "legendary" American business?

Which one is more likely to be blinded by bias?

instead of the hard facts reported by companies which track these things in a scientific way?

You avoided this point before and I'll raise it again: Why is JD Powers & Associates more scientific? Both its methods and the methods of Consumer Reports are affected by non-response bias. JDP&A uses a much smaller sample base and a telephone, CR uses a much larger sample base with a postage-paid response form.

If anything, I'd expect the CR to be more accurate. When people get asked on the phone they give an immediate answer, no time to prepare. I doubt most people go look at their files to see how many problems they've had while they're on the phone, while they're more likely to do so when they have a couple weeks to send the thing in.

Further, the JDP&A reports are either for 1 or 3-year ownership, which is well within the points of warranty by every major manufacturer. It's in the company's best interest to keep those defects down, as it costs them money to replace. If the parts fail after warranty, however, they make money off of it. I know for absolute fact that GM (and presumably Ford) have far less QA standards and testing than Toyota (and presumably Honda) does.

You've been repeatedly pwned in this thread by everyone from Ming to me so give it up and just say "My name is Asher and I prefer my own bias to real facts".

You are so out to lunch, man...

You've been repeatedly owned, you just don't want to see it.

[Spec]

Originally posted by Oerdin


sorry buddy but you don't know what you're talking about. True, a ****le does consume more gas then a regular engine design but the RX-7 was discontinued in America because the Japanese Yen soared against the dollar in the 1990's and the RX-7 got priced out of the market. Sales of RX-7s crashed as the original price of $35k went up and up to the $50k-$60k range. The same thing happened to the 300ZX, the 3000GT, and the Supra (a few years later).

It's all economics my boy.

Please stop it. It's all for enviromentale purposes. When The RX7 went form 30k to 50k between 92 and 93 its because the model change. And it was a 0-60 in 5 second car with an awsome look and a .99 lateral G acceleration. It WAS worth 50k, just like the Supra and 300ZX.
They stopped making The Supra in 95 in canada and in 96 in the US....but the kept sending it to England, Australia, New Zeland til 99 and til 2002 in Japan. And the reason why they stopped shipping it after 98 its because the market for sports cars went down and the SUVs came along.

If you take a look, those cars are still worth 25k on the market today. So no, it wasn"t the economy, it was what the car was worth.

SPec.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher

Which one is more likely to be blinded by bias?

Sorry mate but I'm not rushing out to defend American brands because I love them. I'm simply showing you the quality figures and how you are dead wrong as you so often are. I realize you can't handle that but I'm confident that in time you will learn to cope.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Sorry mate but I'm not rushing out to defend American brands because I love them. I'm simply showing you the quality figures and how you are dead wrong as you so often are. I realize you can't handle that but I'm confident that in time you will learn to cope.

You are Fezzing it up in here, "mate".

You still keep referencing my bias, but you won't tell me how it is. It doesn't make any sense. I'm a neutral third-party. I'm not American, I'm not Japanese.

It's funny that the American defending American products is saying that I'm the biased one, especially given that two of my relatives work for Ford, and my brother is working for a company designing parts for an upcoming American car right now...

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher
2.3L Maxda3: 160hp (DOHC, w/ VVT)
2.3L Ford Focus: 145hp (DOHC, w/o VVT)

They are essentially the same car and if you bothered to read the press releases in the major car publications you'd know that Ford is trying to position Mazda as its performance brand. It's exactly the same motor between the two but Ford gives the Mazda 15 more horsepower to help Mazda with its performance image. That's a marketing descision!

They are the same motor.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oerdin


They are essentially the same car and if you bothered to read the press releases in the major car publications you'd know that Ford is trying to position Mazda as its performance brand. It's exactly the same motor between the two but Ford gives the Mazda 15 more horsepower to help Mazda with its performance image. That's a marketing descision!

They are the same motor.

No, they're not.

The American Focus is using a Mazda motor from 2000(?), because it was still better than the crap they had. The Euro Focus is using the same motor next year, and the American one is targetted for 2008 or something...

The same motor is going in the 2006 Ford Ranger.

Further, if Mazda was being positioned as the performance brand, why does the Focus have the option of a turbo (the 170hp 2.0L), and not the Mazda 3?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher
It's funny that the American defending American products is saying that I'm the biased one, especially given that two of my relatives work for Ford, and my brother is working for a company designing parts for an upcoming American car right now...

Asher the reason I know you are biased is because I've listened to your ranting and bamming on this subject for years. You've been called on it and pointed out how wrong you are tme and again. I'm hoping you will eventually turn around just like you eventually stopped BAMing the Mac.

You usually have a few interesting points but you will often then take those points to illogical extremes which the facts just don't back up. You did it with the Mac and you've done it time and again with various car brands. I know eventually you wilkl take a deep breath and figure out how wrong you've been.

[Asher]

I'm biased because I've held a consistent opinion on this subject for years?

That's a new one...

The facts back me up, Ford is a less reliable brand than Honda and Toyota.

Even your own figures say so, which I don't think are relevant since they're for while the car is under warranty.

Time to quit while you're 500 laps behind, Oerdin...

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher

The American Focus is using a Mazda motor from 2000(?), because it was still better than the crap they had.

You have no clue. Mazda is responsible for all small cars in the Ford Empire. Ford USA is responsible for all large cars and trucks while Ford Europe does medium sized cars. Ford uses the Mazda platform because that's Mazda's job to design the small cars for all the Ford brands.

Read a few more car magazines and you'll become a better informed consumer.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oerdin
You have no clue. Mazda is responsible for all small cars in the Ford Empire. Ford USA is responsible for all large cars and trucks while Ford Europe does medium sized cars. Ford uses the Mazda platform because that's Mazda's job to design the small cars for all the Ford brands.

Read a few more car magazines and you'll become a better informed consumer.

If that's true, why is the Ford Ranger using a Mazda engine?

Isn't that a truck?

I think you ought to take your own advice, ace.

Mazda doesn't design the small cars for the Ford brands -- the Focus is almost entirely Ford.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher
I'm biased because I've held a consistent opinion on this subject for years?

That's a new one...

The facts back me up, Ford is a less reliable brand than Honda and Toyota.

Even your own figures say so, which I don't think are relevant since they're for while the car is under warranty.

Time to quit while you're 500 laps behind, Oerdin...

Nice way to change the argument Asher. You claimed that American cars (not just Ford) were junk and that Japanese cars (not just Toyota and Honda) were better. You were shown to be wrong and laughed at. Now you're changing your tune.

I'd say it is you who is hundreds of laps behind but I am glad you at least now admit some American brands are pretty good even in a sideways sort of way.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oerdin


They are essentially the same car and if you bothered to read the press releases in the major car publications you'd know that Ford is trying to position Mazda as its performance brand. It's exactly the same motor between the two but Ford gives the Mazda 15 more horsepower to help Mazda with its performance image. That's a marketing descision!

They are the same motor.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/0408_economy_cars/index2.html

Another heartbreaker-Europe will soon have a Focus based on Mazda's 3 and Volvo's S40, while we keep the same basic car we've been driving for four years.

Whoops -- looks like you were wrong again, Oerdin.

Maybe if you read a few more car magazines...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Nice way to change the argument Asher. You claimed that American cars (not just Ford) were junk and that Japanese cars (not just Toyota and Honda) were better. You were shown to be wrong and laughed at. Now you're changing your tune.

They are junk -- they're less reliable. They're one in the same IMO.

Why would you settle for something you know is going to have more problems and cost more to maintain?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asher

If that's true, why is the Ford Ranger using a Mazda engine?

Isn't that a truck?

I said cars not engines. Engines only get designed once every 10-20 years or so thus they just keep using which ever ones are available. The current Focus was designed before Ford upped it's ownership to the high 40% of Mazda stock. When that happened Mazda was given responsibility for all small cars. Thus the next Focus will be based upon a Mazda while all of Mazda's larger cars (except the Rx/miata plateform) will be Ford designs.