Hanoi Jane says she's sorry for sitting on NVA AA gun during Vietnam war

[Last Conformist]

I don't have any figures. But given that they were subjected to harsher repression than ethnic Vietnamese, and that they were disproportionally engaged in "capitalistic" activities, it seems a reasonable assumption they were overrepresented among boat people.

[chequita guevara]

MtG has mentioned it several times before (first time I'd heard of it, actually), and one of my former coworkers, an ethnic Chinese from Vietnam also mentioned it. LC is also correct. Throughout most of SE Asia there is and was an external Chinese bourgeoisie. Look at the recent anti-Chinese violence in Indonesia, for example. This is to be expected when there's a billion Chinese right near by. Even if only a few leave China, that's still a lot compared to everyone else.

In addition, the Francophone, Catholic Vietnamese felt it was probably a good idea to get out of dodge, since they tended to be most supportive of the South Vietnamese state, and had been happily oppressing the Budhists and regular Vietnamese for about twenty years. They weren't really wanting to stay around to find out if payback was gonna be a *****. They were the ones who left either with the U.S withdrawl or the fall of SV. The Chinese fled later.

BTW, nye, it wouldn't be at all surprising if Chinese people living in Vietnam for a few hundred years didn't start eating Vietnamese food and learning Vietnamese.

[Admiral]

Nobody from the North would have had to flee anywhere. The Yanks weren't there to turn back the disease, but to stop it from spreading.

While true in theory, if you apply it to the situation, your logic fails. In order to win the war, we would have had to occupy North Vietnam. In this case, the North Vietnamese would have had to flee.

But my real point is that we like to think of the North as being bad, and the South as being good. In reality, they were both bad, just in different ways. If the situations had been reversed, people still would have fled, because the other side is an evil that they don't know, but have heard large amounts of propaganda about. The US just shouldn't have been there, because it was a fight that we didn't need to fight (even if we could have won), for a government not noticably better from Evil Communism.

Curious. Is your family Vietnamese?

No. My uncle just married a Vietnamese woman.

[Ned]

I have mentioned this before, but I should mention this again. The history of IndoChina in the last two centuries is more a story of a religious conflict that a struggle of economic theories. The Vietnamese emperors began a vicious cycle of persecution and genocide against Catholics in the 1830's. This lead to increasing intervention of the French throughout that century until, in a final confrontation, they defeated the combined arms of China and Vietnam. During their rule, the Catholic Church flourished. After the fall of Japanese rule, the stuggle for IndoChina renewed and split primarily along religious grounds. Ho lead a coalition of anti-French and anti-Catholic groups against the Catholics. When the French lost, the nation was divided into administrative spheres, with the commies running the North. When this happened, millions of Catholics relocted to the South. Diem, a Catholic, then ended the State of Vietnam and declared a Republic of Vietnam, primarily to avoid a national election when the South could be expected to lose given the greater population of the North. However, Diem's regime, Catholic thru and thru, encountered resistance from Buddists and commies alike. This lead to repression of the Buddists and a revolution by the Southern commies who formed the NLF.

American support of SV was described to the American people as a stuggle for democracy. But to the people of the South, it was just as much a struggle for religious freedom. They had history to inform them what would happen if Buddists or commies were to gain power.

In the end, the Catholics of SV lost. When they did, as many of them as possible fled.

I have no idea where the Catholic Church is in SV today. But I would be surprised if it existed at all.

[chequita guevara]

The Catholics were only 5% of the population, dawg. While that doesn't excuse persecuting them, they had no right to hrode the business and government to themselves and perscute the majority religion.

This, however, seems to disagree with you.

http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/todaystake/tt042403.htm

I suspect that the French may have claimed the Catholics of Vietnam were being persecuted as a pretext for invasion, just as President McKinnely claimed were were going to Christianize the Philippines (which were Catholic).

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by TCO
I think the people running around with Communist flags and pictures of Stalin are sick. And you liberal Democrats make common cause with these candy-ass "Che-cult" types all the time. Makes me sick. Why not run around with swasticas.

Swasticas were the symbol of the right-wing Nazi Party. As such, they are reserved for use by Republicans.

[Boris Godunov]

I already made that comment.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I already made that comment.

What can I say? When you're right, you're right!

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Cruddy
Uh huh. And the war helped them (Vietnamese boat people) how, exactly?

Originally posted by TCO


Well they were a lot better off before than after.

Thank you for admitting, in a really half arsed manner, how the Vietnamese people were brutalized and massacred by your country.

Originally posted by TCO
Maybe you want to tell me how the Cambodians were better off after the Khmer Rouge communists took over also.

No, I think you are wrong on that one. Strange idea to think they were better off... of course, when Vietnam was liberated by Vietnam, they were a lot happier.

[Ned]

Che, the real reason for French intervention was to put and end to the butchery of Christians by Vietnamese emperors. It is amazing that we are not taught this in our history lessons:

"Christianity made wonderful progress throughout the Annamite Empire during the reign of Gia-long (Nguyen-an), as if in preparation for future trials. In 1819, the Christian community included 4 bishops, 25 European and 180 native priests, 1000 catechists, and 1500 nuns. Gia-long was succeeded by the cruel and profligate Minh-mang (1820-41), who immediately manifested his fierce hatred of Christianity. Having dismissed M. Chaigneau, the French Consul and Gia-long's trusted friend, he engaged on a campaign to obliterate every vestige of Christianity within his realms. He first issued an order excluding all new missionaries and summoning all those already in the country to appear at court, believing that the flock, deprived of its pastors, would disperse. His object was, however, defeated at once by the zeal of the missionaries, who regardless of personal danger neglected the decree, and by the venality of the mandarins who, granted that sufficient bribes were forthcoming, were always willing to close their eyes when new missionaries arrived in port. The advocacy of the Viceroy of Cochin China, an old soldier of Gia-long who fearlessly remonstrated with Minh-mang for his persecution of the missionaries to whom his father owed his throne, prevented the emperor from adopting more serious measures for a time, but the viceroy's death in 1832 was quickly followed by the edict of 6 January, 1833. This ordered all Christians to renounce their Faith, and in token of the sincerity of their recantation, to trample the crucifix underfoot. All churches and religious houses were to be razed to the ground, and teachers of Christianity to be treated with the utmost rigour. In 1836, all ports were closed to Europeans except Turan, and penalty of death pronounced against priests. Ships coming to port were submitted to a rigid examination, and all officials were commanded under threat of the severest penalties to hunt down the missionaries, for which duty special troops were also appointed. A secret clause of the edict ordered the immediate dispatch of all priests to the capital. These edicts were the signal for the start of a persecution which, with short intermissions, lasted for fifty years.

In 1833 Father Gaglin, Pro-vicar of Cochin China, was arrested and beheaded. Father Marchand was sentence in 1835 to "the one hundred wounds", Father Cornay to dismemberment in 1837. Martyrdom awaited Mgr. Boray in 1838, in which year Bishop Delgado, then in his eighty-four year, died in prison, his coadjutor (aged eighty-one) being executed with numerous Dominicans and native Christians. In 1840 Father Delamotte died in prison. Flying from place to place to administer the consolation of religion and to instruct their spiritual children, the intrepid missionaries managed to keep the lamp of Faith burning during this terrible period. No little credit is due to the fidelity of the natives to their pastors; regardless of danger, they sheltered the proscribed priests, escorted them by concealed paths to their next place of hiding and ministry, and though the prisons were filled with Christians, cases of apostasy were extremely rare. Even the unfortunate Christians, who, subjected to horrible tortures, renounced their religion, seized in almost every instance the first opportunity to become reconciled with the Church, which only physical weakness had led them to forsake.

The persecution abated somewhat on the death of Minh-mang in 1841. The new emperor, Tien-tri (1841-7), had not the energy of his predecessors, and was in addition sobered by the English successes in China and the threat of France to intervene if the persecution continued. In 1844, Cochin China was divided into the Vicariates Apostolic of Eastern and Western Cochin China, while in 1846 the Vicariates Apostolic of Western and Southern Tong-king replaced the ancient Vicariate of Western Tong-king. Cambodia and the northern provinces of Cochin China were formed into new vicariates in 1850. The accession of Tu-duc in 1848 was followed quickly by an edict setting a price on the heads of the missionaries. In 1851 a second edict was issued, accusing the Christians of conspiracy against the emperor, and ordering the European priests to be cast into the sea or rivers, and the native priests to be cut in two. The first result of this sanguinary edict was the decapitation of Fathers Augustin Schoffler (1851) and Bonnard (1852). In 1855 a universal proscription of Christians was issued; Christian mandarins were commanded to abjure the Faith within a month, all others within six months, while a reward of $480 was offered for the detention of each European, and $160 for the detention of each native priest. The persecution was now renewed with increased fury, and at last Napoleon III determined to intervene. The ships, however, which accompanied the French convoys, were separated in a storm, and thus deprived of the force necessary to impress the native potentate, the embassy failed to achieve anything tangible. Before departing, M. de Montigny, the French plenipotentiary, was seized with the unlucky thought of threatening Annam with French vengeance, if the execution of Christians continued. This only left the Annamite authorities of suspecting the Christians of having invited French intervention, and thenceforth a political motive for persecution was added to the religious one. On 20 July, 1856, Father Tru was beheaded, and the general massacre of Christians began. The Spanish bishop, Mgr. Diaz, was executed in 1857; in January, 1858, a town occupied by the Christians was set aflame, and all the inhabitants butchered. Roused by the slaughter of their countrymen, France and Spain took action in autumn of 1858 to demand redress for the violence committed against the Christians of the Annamite Empire (then estimated at 600,000). On 31 August, 1858, the joint expedition under Vice-admiral Rigault de Genouilly and Colonel Lanzanrote seized Turan, and defied every attempt of the Annamites to dislodge them. Having vainly awaited reinforcements for some months, Genouilly, finding that sickness was decimating his troops, changed his tactics, sailed southwards, and seized Saigon in early 1859, but, through lack of proper forces, was again prevented from pressing his advantage home. Seeing no opportunity for reinforcements, since France was fully occupied with the war against Italy, Genouilly retained only the fort to the south of Saigon, sailed back to Turan, and resumed possession of that town.

The persecution meanwhile raged with unabated vigour: Bishop Hermosilla, and three other Spanish bishops, twenty-eight Dominicans, and thousands of Christians were tortured and executed. Two other European priests, who had been imprisoned and tortured, were only saved from execution by the Peace of June, 1862. But perhaps the greatest glory of this self-sacrificing mission lies in the number of native Christians who joyfully laid down their lives for the Faith. Within the space of a little more than four years (1957-62), the list of martyrs included 115 Annamite priests (one-third of the native clergy), 100 Annamite nuns, and more than 500 of the faithful. This list of executions gives only a faint idea of the horrors of the time. All the prisons were filled with confessors of the Faith; eighty convents and almost one hundred towns, the centres of the Christian community, were razed to the ground, and their inhabitants scattered throughout the land. According to the most conservative estimated, of the 300,000 Christians thus dispersed, about 40,000 died of ill-treatment, starvation, and unheard-of miseries, while all the possessions of the remainder were confiscated.

The Peace of 1862, which brought to a close this terrible period, was in no way due to a change in Tu-duc's feelings, but entirely to his fear, lest the revolutionary party which had taken up arms in Tong-king, should secure the support of France. According to this treaty, Annam ceded to France the southern provinces of Cochin China (Bien-hoa, Saigon, and Mytho), paid an indemnity of $4,000,000 to France and Spain, and guaranteed freedom of religious worship, provided that no compulsion should be used to force the natives to become Christians against their will—a strange proviso, in view of the "compulsion" which had been used during the preceding years. Relieved of the ban of proscription, and fertilized by the blood of so many martyrs, the missions began again to yield abundant fruit. The fearlessness shown by the Christians in the face of torture and death had greatly impressed the natives, who, seeing that converts were no longer viewed with marked displeasure by the administration, now hastened to seek instruction in the Christian Faith. In 1865 the baptisms of adults numbered 1365; in 1869 the number baptized was 4005. A still greater number of Annamites came to the missionaries, and, while declaring that they themselves were too old to change their religion, begged that their children might be received into the Church. In 1863 Mgr. Miche used his influence with King Norodum of Cambodia to bring about the treaty, according to which Cambodia placed itself under the protection of France.

While the Christians in the South were thus enjoying complete freedom from interference, their brethren in other regions of the Annamite Empire were not equally favoured. Removed from the centre of French power in the peninsula, they were subjected to many molestations and annoyances owing to the hatred of the mandarins. The ill-feeling among the pagan natives culminated in the assassination of Francis Garnier and four companions by the Black Flags on 21 December, 1873. Fearful of the consequences, the mandarins had already yielded to the influence of Mgr. Puginier and Mgr. Sohier, and expressed their readiness to sign a convention guaranteeing the security of Christians and foreigners, when a letter was received from M. Philastre, French inspector of Native Affairs at Saigon, ordering the suspension of all negotiations until his arrival. Disregarding every dictate of prudence and the reiterated warning and entreaties of Mgr. Puginier, this functionary ordered the immediate evacuation of Tong-king, and thus made France break faith with the huge body of Christians, who had accepted Garnier's proposals, and had promised to assist France in its endeavour to secure liberty of worship and civil recognition for Christians. Misinterpreting the French departure for weakness, as Mgr. Puginier had foreseen, the pagans now prepared to surfeit their hatred against the Christians. The whole vicariate of Western Tong-king was completely wrecked; that of Southern Tong-king was left a heap of ruins. In view of this system of universal butchery the missionaries had given the faithful permission to take up arms, when the persecution came to an abrupt close in a remarkable manner. In the Province of Nghe-an (Northern Annam), one of the periodic local revolts, with which Annamite history is littered, had assumed threatening proportions: the royal forces had been signally defeated in several enhancements, a large tract of country had within a short period fallen into the hands of the rebels, and it needed only the defection of certain high dignitaries, then wavering in their allegiance, to assure the complete success of the revolution. In this crisis the mandarins hastened to summon to the defense of legitimate authority the Christians, whom they had but a few days before delivered over to massacre and pillage. Reinforced by the Catholics, the regular army defeated the rebels in several successive engagements, and quickly restored tranquility throughout the territories. On 15 March, 1874, a new treaty was signed between France and Annam, which guaranteed explicitly religious freedom and the safety of the missionaries. All enactments against the Christians were annulled; perfect liberty was accorded to the Annamites to embrace and practice Christianity; religion was to form no obstacle to public employment; all terms and phrases in public codes etc., objectionable to Catholics, were to be removed; priests and bishops were accorded unrestricted freedom to move about the empire without being subjected to interrogation or espionage; all confiscated property, not yet occupied, was to be restored to its Christian owners.

From 1874 to 1882 the Christians enjoyed a period of relative peace, but in the latter year the mandarins had begun to act with such an absolute disregard for the treaty that France was once more compelled to intervene. Finding it impossible to secure any satisfactory agreement from the mandarins, Commander Riviére seized the citadel of Hanoi 25 April, and then occupied Nam-dinh, but was slain in an engagement with the Black Flags on 19 May. On 26 May Father Becket and numbers of his catechists and flock were decapitated by the Annamites. A proposal in the Council to decree of general massacre of Christians was vetoed by Tu-duc. This was one of the Annamite monarch's last important acts, and contrasted favourable with his general policy throughout his long reign (1847-1883). Stirred now from its inaction, France dispatched strong reinforcements under General Bouet and General Courbet. The bombardment of Thuan-an and the capture of Hue led to the Treaty of 25 August, 1883. As, however, the Black Flags still continued to massacre and pillage about Hanoi, Admiral Courbet proceeded against Son-tai, and, despite its desperate defense, captured the town on 17 December. To avenge themselves for their defeats the Annamite authorities forthwith declared a general massacre of Christians. Troops were dispersed throughout the country to rob, burn, pillage, slay, and leave no trace of Christianity in the land. The French troops meanwhile gained victory after victory: Bac-ninh, Kep, Thai-nguyen, and Hung-hao were successively captured and on 2 June, 1884, a treaty was signed promising indemnity for the Christians, and a general amnesty for those who had assisted France. But the ambuscade laid by the Annamites and the Chinese for the French at Bac-le (24 June, 1884) indicated clearly what confidence could be reposed in Annamite faith. France at once attacked China, annihilated the Chinese fleet, bombarded Fou-chou, and blockade Formosa. Such salutary terror did this prompt action cause the Chinese authority that they hastened to conclude peace on 9 June, 1885. The Franco-Annamite Treaty of 1884 was ratified on 23 February, 1886. Annam became a French protectorate, and the influence which China had exercised over its affairs for more than 400 years came to an end.

A detailed description of the sufferings of the missions during the "Great Massacres" cannot be attempted here. The following figures given in Piolet (op. cit. infra, II, pp. 470-1) will sufficiently indicate the ruthlessness of the butchery and the fierce determination of the Annamite authorities to destroy every vestige of the Christian faith. In Eastern Cochin China the martyrs included 15 priests (7 native), 60 catechists, 270 nuns, 24,000 Christians (out of 41, 234); all the charitable institutions and ecclesiastical buildings of the mission—including the episcopal curia, churches, presbyteries, 2 seminaries, a printing establishment, 17 orphanages, 10 convents, and 225 chapels—were destroyed. In Southern Cochin China 10 native priests and 8585 Christians were massacred in the Province of Quang-tri alone—the two remaining provinces supplied hundreds of martyrs; two-thirds of the churches, presbyteries, etc. of the mission were pillaged and burned. In the Mission of Southern Tong-king, 163 churches were burned; 4799 Catholics were executed, while 1181 died of hunger and misery. These figures apply only to the year 1885; in 1883-4 eight French missionaries, one native priest, 63 catechists and 400 Christians were massacred in Western Tong-king, while 10,000 Catholics only saved themselves by flight. The carnage extended even to the remote forests of Laos, where seven missionaries, several native priests, and thousands of Catholics were butchered."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07765a.htm

[St Leo]

Summary:
Alpha: Jane Fonda personally raped hundreds of thousands and forced millions to flee Vietnam.

Aleph: Did not.

[Ned]

Summary, Jane was corrupted by the French, and fell into extreme leftism when she married Tom Hayden who wrote the SDS manifesto. Jane was probably farther left than most commies. When the SDS fell apart, she single-handedly kept the anti-war movement alive. Her visit to NV was consistent with her extreme leftism. To her, the US was clearly on the wrong side in the Vietnam war.

She has apologized for going to NV. But, I would more convinced if she would flatly say that her who adventure into extreme leftism was wrong.

[chequita guevara]

Own Goal!

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Own Goal!

Well, if Jane can repent, can you?

[chequita guevara]

I could if I wanted to do so.

I don't.

I'm a true believer.