Apostates of Islam

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I beg to differ. On page 5 you're the one turning this into a debate on whether Jesus existed.

Bzzzt, wrong. You'll note that Imran and Oerdin were already engaged in the argument. I was merely contributing to that portion of it. And my argument was only that there are scholars who debate the established orthodoxy in this matter.

Besides, threadjacks happen all the time. Most people can deal with it without whining.

My remark serves to remind you that you'd rather live in a country politically dominated by Christian fundies than by Islamic fundies.

I don't need "reminding" of that, as I've never said or felt otherwise, thank you. As I've said--several times--I was not participating in any argument over the merits of Christianity vs. Islam. So your remark was both irrelevant and offensive.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Those guys were a bunch of ********* but they weren't practicing Christianity as explained in the Bible.

From the deuteronomy, a part of the Holy Book whose Truth is absolute and literal:

22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

I admit, there are two elements one can be pedantic with. In any case, this infinite truth of Christianty is exactly as cruel as the Moslem dogma you denounce (I've not seen the Koran say something like that, but I wouldn't be surprised if the current Saudi execution methods come directly from GOD!!!!). But once again, I don't see how the dogmas differ from each other. They encompass a museum of horrors that should terrify any modern mind.

[Dinner]

Jesus reputated much of the old testiment. Ben Kenobi had mentioned that early (or maybe it was in another thread; I'm to lazy to check).

[Ramo]

Not that that's relevent. Since you were making **** up about the Qur'an.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by molly bloom

I have a very interesting book (with pictures as well as text) illustrating just how bad the Roman Catholic Inquisition was to women. However the anti-female/anti-sex rage was not confined to them, and there was witch burning and hanging and ducking and immersion in Protestant England and Scotland too.

Adultery was punished, but off the top of my head I can't remember the exact punishment- but I suspect in extreme cases mutilation was involved- slicing off the nose, boring a hole in the tongue and cutting the cheeks were popular punishments.

Your imagination I presume.
I've read exercts from one of the most popular medieval punishment books (whatever; it was kind of unofficial manual for punishments, traditions, quotes, pretty popuar in MA, but in fact later on condemned) (in Le Goff's book I think; the author of this book was a bishop somewhere in Lorraine if I recall, I can check that), and the punishments for adultery was in general a fast - bread and water. Not too long for a guy, it was i think sth like 2 weeks if both were not married, more if they were. For woman, it was much much more.

I'd say the sharia and the Wahhabists would have found like minds in Calvin's Geneva and Cromwell's England.

But this is past. It has nothing to do with Christianity itself and modern-day Christians.

Even the catholic church in its darkest hours wasn't exactly fundie. But if you want to imagine an actual Christian fundy country, just take a look at the Leviticus and Deuteronomy. It's not any nicer than what is done in Saudi

This is OT bs. Jesus came to free people from such stuff, it's obvious for anyone who's not utterly biased.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Heresson
This is OT bs. Jesus came to free people from such stuff, it's obvious for anyone who's not utterly biased.

It's obvious to me just as it is obvious for you, and for about any sensible person who has some understanding for Jesus' message.

It's not obvious for the "Christians" who oppose gay marriage on the grounds of Leviticus 20:13, for example*



*I insist that I'm talking about the fundies here, i.e. those who believe the Bible is directly the word of God, and that it should be understood literally. These are the same people who claim that the Churches who officially interpret the Bible are misguided or heretical (such as the Catholic Church, which sees the Bible as a work inspired by God, but written by men and as such not a perfect text). These people do exist, especially among American protestants. I personally have clicked the link of a Jesusbot, which used the very same words as what I'm writing right now.
Regarding gay marriage, I can understand that non-fundy Christians rail against it. The fundies don't have the monopoly of opposition to gay marriage. But the non-fundy Christians don't base their arguments on Leviticus. That's a world of difference.

[Az]

I can't believe you still argue about this stuff.

[Spiffor]

I'm trying to explain Oerdin that all dogmas, when followed literally, suck donkey balls. The barbary he finds in Islam is nothing exceptional. The OT has the same, and even worse (Islam had actually a rather progressive worldview at the time it was written)

[Az]

well, Islam came some ~1000 years after the OT.

[lord of the mark]

the book of Vayikra

Calling Vayikra "leviticus"

Christians dissing the Hebrew scriptures as surpassed by Jesus

Atheists dissing the Hebrew scriptures as surpassed by Jesus

Judging the Hebrew scriptures based on what Protestant fundies do with them

Calling the Hebrew Scriptures the "OT"

Doing so in OT

Reading the Hebrew scriptures with the benefit of centuries of Jewish commentaries

Judging the Koran with limited knowledge of it

Judging the Koran outside the context of centuries of muslim commentary

Hamid Karzai

Ted Striker

[chequita guevara]

Adhering to religion at all

[Az]

Religionists are people who read the Tanah. Atheists are people who understand the Tanah.

Religion

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor


*I insist that I'm talking about the fundies here, i.e. those who believe the Bible is directly the word of God, and that it should be understood literally.

Orthodox Jews insist that the Hebrew scripture is directly the word of G-d, yet this does NOT lead the same path of interpretation as Proto fundies. They beleive that EVERY word, every LETTER is holy, and NONE is superflous, there EVERY repetition, every odd usage, every grammatical particle MUST be explained - this hyperliteralism is the basis of midrash, and sometimes leads to interpretations that look NOTHING like a directly literal interpretation (the closest thing to direct literalism is Pshat, which is not QUITE literal, but close to it - there is also allegorical interpretation - AND mystical - the tradition insists all 4 are TRUE at the same time)

Even non-Orthodox Jews, while not holding with this philisophically, use the Midrashic traditions.

This does answer this particular passage (orthodox Jews maintain the illicitness of homosexuality, but they arent generally as obsessed with it as Protestant fundies (Az may report differently from his end of the world) while some Conservative rabbis have developed Midrashic justifications for some more lenient views)

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Atheists dissing the Hebrew scriptures as surpassed by Jesus

Well, Jesus brought the idea of a kind and loving God, that forgives basically everything as long as you repent. It's quite a difference with the God depicted in the OT (I deleted the adjectives as I wrote this post, because I thought you'd feel insulted).

The idea that love is a central virtue to honor God, in particular, is something you barely find in the OT. I know there are some love poems, which is to be expected from a text that gathers centuries/millenia of tradition. But love is no more central to it than mythological history, or than the Law.

[lord of the mark]

religion is a latin word, from the word "rule" one who lives by a "monastic" rule. Its foreign concept to Jewish civilization. Jewish civ knows emunah Israel, the faith of Israel, and avodah hashem, the service of the holy one.