Let's talk about European antisemitism

[Brent]

What about the British colonists of America, Canada, Australia, and South Africa? Britain did its colonization long ago and has had plenty of opportunity to do what it has to make things right. Israel is not innocent, but we could be slightly more understanding.

Arabs have plenty of homeland, and plenty of roughly equally valued holy sites. The Jews have only Israel and Jerusalem. The two peoples should get along.

[Agathon]

Back on Topic: the only anti-semite in Europe is Spiffor, who started this thread to hide that fact.

I know this is true because I once heard him say he hated bagels. That makes him scum.

Mmmmm bagels...

[Spiffor]

Well, I merely don't wish to look like your avatar

(Now that's an interesting threadjack Live and learn )

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Lord Nuclear
Erm... This forum leans heavily to the left, as you can see through the political polls we take. And most of the right-wingers aren't conservative, but moderates.

Please read my post with some attention. It was not about THIS forum.

This is quite a racist statement. Based on a few opinions on Apolyton, you generalize all Jews? From how I read that statement, you were calling most Jews stupid.

- where's the racism here?
- where am I writing about all Jews?
- where am I writing about my own perceivement of Jews?
- You're reading my statement wrong. Where am I writing something about anyone's stupidity? Even Hitler didn't claim Jews are stupid

I'm sorry, how did you come to the conclusion that many Jews are ignorant with regards to Polish-Jewish relations? Have you met all Jews?

Can You distinguish between "many" and "all"?
I've comen to it after activity in several internet fora, and after reading and hearing and watching news through my life.

And also, a mild dislike of any race/culture/religion, is racist. Saying I don't like Ariel Sharon is fine, but saying I have a dislike for Jews is anti-semitism.

Any generalisation is unfair to some extent, but it's not like every generalisation is bad or even not reasonable.
For example, statement that I quoted by DanS is generalisation as well. However, whether it's right or not, it's supposed to focus our attention on a problem.
It may be unfair to think that Nigerians have black skin in general, because perhaps there are some of European descent, but it's an information that helps us in our lives.
If a nation exists, You can have feelings concerning it.
To defend your point well, You'd have to come to a conclusion that nations do not exist, which is completely OK, but as You seem to believe in existance of nations, it'd be somehow strange to forbid people opinion on them.

[DanS]

They have a disproportiante amount of influence relative to their numbers also. I'm not saying that's a BAD thing, just the way it is.

Aren't the Russian oligarch's disproportionately Jewish? The US has avoided some of the envy against Jews, but I wonder if Russia will take a turn for the worse in the antisemitism department. I'm guessing that if the Jews were perceived to have crossed a line in disporportionate influence by Americans, things could get ugly here too, although I don't perceive that to be very near a danger.

[BlackCat]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Agathon

How come that you only critisice Israel as a "raper" and not the other countries ?

How little you know me.

Yep, I only know what you state here.

But there are precious few of those people who are both occupied and denied civil rights.

For example, one could argue that the British illegally took a great deal of Maori land in the colonization of New Zealand (they certainly did, but by no means all of the land was stolen).

NZ Maori have full political rights and can petition the courts for redress of past wrongs (which they are actively doing). There is no substantial movement for "keeping New Zealand white". In any case the aim of the British colonists was to found a new state of both peoples (that's enshrined in our founding document).

That's a **** of a lot different from a bunch of people flooding into an area with the express purpose of displacing and disenfranchising the local inhabitants, and then keeping them under apartheid occupation.

Israel is an absolute disgrace. It goes against the whole of the Jewish religious tradition and shows how easy it is for people to become what they hate if it suits them.

Why was it illegal that the British took Maori land ?

The jewish settlements in the occupied areas are just some fanatics wet dreams based upon religous fantasies but hasn't anythibg to do with Israel as such. If that was the case, they wouldn't had sufficed with occupying the areas, they would have claimed ownership of the areas - if I'm not wrong, they have done this in the golans.

I don't think that there was much liberty in those areas that was "raped" by the soviet - if I'm not wrong, then it was suicide to try to claim that you had aany rights at all.

I'm not Stalinist.

Maybe not, but I can't rember you oppose against this.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Well, if I made a thread about anti-asian racism, would you guys have talked about the universality of territorial conquest?

Don't tell me that you don't know that tere are a jewish conspiracy to rule the world - that of course make your question open for all issues

I hope you understand irony

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Every group tends to focus on the specific brand of racism that affects it. And the Jews are probably the best established minority, which is why it is mainstream to single out antisemitism.

Plus, you can't forget that the Jews control the media... it makes it that much easier for them to emphasize antisemitism.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Drogue

The UN also decided Israel's boundaries. They are not the borders it currently occupies. That's stealing other people's land, whereas it's formation was not, IMHO.

Isn't that called conquest? I don't see anything wrong with that. The Arab nations picked a fight, they lost, Israel took their territory. I don't see why Israel has any duty to give the land back. Conquered nations lose territory. Where are the anti-Zionists *****ing that Poland stole German lands after WW2? Where are the people demanding that Stettin be returned? Where are those demanding that Russia return Königsberg back to Germany? When you lose wars, you lose land. I have no problem with that.

[Agathon]

Why was it illegal that the British took Maori land ?

Because they'd made most of the Maori British subjects and guaranteed their property rights in law.

The UN also decided Israel's boundaries.

I'm a UN fan, but that was lame. It was done against the wishes of people who lived there. Imagine how the people of Texas would feel if a bunch of Russians started invading their state and then had the UN recognize it as another country. They'd be hopping mad and justifiably so.

The foundation of Israel was in retrospect a ridiculous mistake. Canada and the United States should have stepped up and taken in any Jew who wished to leave Europe. So should Australia and New Zealand.

But... the Israelis are there now and removing them all would be a barbaric act. What really needs to happen is for Israel to be forced back within the 1967 borders.

If you polled the world's citizens, you'd find an overwhelming majority would endorse that solution because it is really the only feasible one.

Meanwhile all these jackasses who try to equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism are fast pissing off people (including many Jews who don't like to be associated with Likud's barbarity).

[Edan]

European jews Speak out

They'll always have paris

Of the 15- to 18-year-olds polled, three-quarters say they do not see a future for themselves in France, and half have suffered from some form of anti-Semitism in the past five years.

Russian MPs want ban on Jewish groups

Russia's nationalist lawmakers have asked the prosecutor general to ban all Jewish organisations because of their "extremist" behaviour in a call that coincided with ceremonies marking the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

A darkness falls on England

When Prince Harry, third in line to the throne, was pictured wearing a Nazi costume, a newspaper survey found that more than half of British adults between 18 and 24 could see no problem with the outfit. According to a BBC poll last December, 45 percent of British adults claimed never to have heard of Auschwitz.

[Brent]

there are differences between an entire people, its government, its history, its religion, and the cultural values they are taught.

Oh, and doesn't everyone know that the Maori are Israelites anyway?? And that the House of Israel is indeed supposed to rule the world?? Palestine is for Judah, the Americas are for what was the Northern Kingdom and for the Japhethites.

Why can't the Palestinians merge with surrounding Arab nations? Shouldn't the Jews have a land of their own?

[Agathon]

Why can't the Palestinians merge with surrounding Arab nations?

Why should they?

Shouldn't the Jews have a land of their own

No. Why should any political entity be defined by race?

[Tassadar500]

If the Jews don't deserve to have a land of their own, why do the Arabs?

[Mr. Harley]

First of all, the Jewish settlements are there as much for water rights as for territory. Do I need to put all those cites in again

Secondly, and exactly to the point, anti-Zionist does not make one anti-Semitic. My wife loathes Zionism. She's also Jewish, well accepted at the local synagogue, and raising our little girl Jewish. WTF.

She also heavily disapproves of the actions of the Israeli government, as do I. The people here protesting that there is nothing really wrong with Israeli actions on the West Bank have roughly four arguments.

1) It was their land. Except it hasn't been for over a millenia, and if you want to go back beyond that - why not determine who still has the genetic markers for Canannites, and let them have the land. Inconsistant application of an argument.

2) God promised it to them. The Muslims have a book saying Mohammed told them that they should always be in charge of any land they live in, over the non-Muslims. Both have a Holy Book ceding them control. You prefer the Jewish claim? Then you are not arguing logic, but faith, i.e. whose holy book is better?

3) The surrounding countries don't give as many rights to their citizens. True, unless you change it to inhabitants. Then it becomes not true. Any citizen in the surrounding Arab countries has more access to water, schools, and freedom of movement than the Palestinians. Which means that Israel is engaged in Jim Crow domestically (internally a majority treating a minority as second class citizens) and engaged in apartheid (minority treating majorty) on the West Bank.

4) Every country is based on taking comeone else's land. First of all, Agathon made a very good point via New Zealand, etc. Secondly, Israel was created since the Geneva Conventions. Thirdly, Israel is in violation of many agreed upon conventions reference the treatment of civilians and their property in occupied areas. Fourth, Israel has expropriated land to which others had clear title simple based on their religious affiliation, i.e. they were not Jews. I believe that is called racism.


I am similiarly anti-Zionist (as is my wife). I am not anti-Semitic, and I would support a secular Israel where Muslim and Jewish inhabitants have fully equal rights. I am uncertain as to whether Europe is more anti-semitic than the US, though I will grant that it is definitively more strongly anti-Zionist. Considering the statements I have heard in the American Bible Belt about how they would never date one of those people (whenever I discuss my wife's Judaism) I would not be so quick to say the US is less anti-Jewish - though they could care less if a Jew converts and becomes a Baptist, because then they are saved. In which case they might still be semitic (if they were Sephardic to begin with) but no longer Jewish. Which makes the local religious community intolerant of other religions - it is - but not intolerant of other races. The problem is that Judaism is that odd, implicit mix of the two which makes seperating those issues difficult, if not impossible.