Today is my last day

[Agathon]

You think that's sad? Take a look at Keef.

[Brent]

The arrogance to believe man's reason is sufficient without God is what's irrational.

[Dinner]

Say again?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Brent
The arrogance to believe man's reason is sufficient without God is what's irrational.

[Heresson]

Stop misrepresenting me.

I'm not an especially anti-Christian bigot, I'm just prejudiced against irrationality, and religion is irrational.

In fact, the only thing we can be sure of is our existance. Everything else is irrational.

[Alexander's Horse]

.

[Brent]

There are people not too sure about our existance either...

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The problem is that the Catholics recognised this and made changes. The protestants just schism if there is disagreement. There is no incentive to maintain unity in the face of disagreements.

No, the RCC refused to acknowledge the need for change, else Luther would never have split. It was the whole attitude of the RCC in keeping the people ignorant "for their own good."

Heck, even the Anglicans at first continued the longstanding RC policy of persecuting those who would translate the scriptures into the vulgar.

Yeah, I've heard Scott Hahn. Nothing new here, just a vastly oversimplified reading of sola scriptura compared to an equally oversimplified reading of RC tradition.

I've given his argument here.

Perhaps you care to address it?

Secondly, is the presentation by Scott Hahn as to the Catholic position of scripture and tradition, I found closer to my own beliefs than sola scriptura. I rejected that interpretation that each ought to be able to interpret scripture on their own without any tradition, because that leads to all sorts of problems, quite early on.

Also, scripture affirms the role of tradition in intepretation as well as the role of elders in assisting such interpretation. So if you believe the bible is the sole authority, then you are forced to cede that even the bible affirms the authority of tradition.

The rub lies in two inherent fallacies of argument: "on their own without any tradition." Nobody is interpreting "on their own," nor is it possible in any scholarly study to be interpreting "without any tradition." There is always the natural comparison to the standing interpretation of the day and the many and varied traditions.

So what Hahn is really saying is that it is wrong to disagree with RC interpretation of scripture and official tradition. Why? Because they say so on the authority of their interpretation and tradition. Tautology and circular reasoning.

The Bible does not affirm the inerrancy of the elders or of tradition. It is therefore our place to weigh their input. The motives of particular elders and the accuracy of the knowledge available to them may be questioned without harm to the role of elders as teachers. The additions of neo-Aristotelian philosophy can be rejected as contemporizations of truths in the scripture without harm to the scriptures themselves or traditions that affirm them.

The real jewel in Scott Hahn's teaching is his projection of God, the institutional Church, and the Laity as Daddy, Mommy, and Siblings to the believer. I see it as an inability to embrace God as encompassing the role of Daddy and Mommy to the believer. It is almost as if he is afraid to be weaned from the teat and digest "strong meat" (Heb 5:12ff).

[Odin]

Originally posted by Brent
The arrogance to believe man's reason is sufficient without God is what's irrational.

Ignorance is bliss...

[Odin]

Originally posted by Brent
There are people not too sure about our existance either...

Those are just a bunch of crazy philosophers. I would rather listen and believe to scientists.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Agathon

Especially anti-Christian bigots, like Agathon

Stop misrepresenting me.

I'm not an especially anti-Christian bigot, I'm just prejudiced against irrationality, and religion is irrational.

You mean your understanding of religion is prejudiced and irrational.

[Agathon]

Those are just a bunch of crazy philosophers. I would rather listen and believe to scientists.

They don't believe we exist either.

[Ben Kenobi]

Bump for Lancer

[Lancer]

Interesting Ben, hope it works out for you. To me it's all window dressing unless you go into a religion that rejects Christ, which might lead you to do the same...

Anyway, I just spent the last few months going to Catholic church in Jagna where the wife goes and worshiping with the believers there. It was nice since I couldn't understand much of what was said and could pray my own prayers and think my own thoughts. Wonderful old chuch which was built by the Spanish 4 or 500 years ago. It's cross shaped and has flying buttresses and is beautifully painted, cieling and all. Not what one would expect in the third world. The acoustics are just wonderful and the singing of the Philipinos so pure that I just stand in awe when they really get going.

Getting homesick...

[Ben Kenobi]

The desire's been there for a long time now Lancer. I'm happy here, and I don't think I'm abandoning Christ by becoming Catholic.