The amazing ongoing hideousness of Michael Howard (Part XXXIV)

[C0ckney]

see this is what i don't like, laz has started a thread here to complain about the awful tories (blah etc.), and to people who live outside the UK, or don't really know what's going on, it all looks perfectly reasonable, but of course it's not the whole story is it, as laz knows full well. :/

first of all lets get the one thing laz is right about out of the way, making trespass a criminal offence is very bad idea for the reasons he stated, adverse possession rights are important and should be protected.

now there is a big fuss in this country about travellers, and there's been a lot of debate about them recently, started off mainly by the sun newspaper's campaign on the issue. now we all have our views on gypsies and the like, and the problems they cause, but i guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and in any case it's very much beside the point.

what has sparked this campaign (and debate) is the fact the deputy prime minister has ordered the police not to remove gypsies from illegal sites, basically to back off. he has also ordered local councils not to refuse gypsies planning permission because they might face 'racial discrimination' and (for the same reason) not to seek the removal of illegal sites through the courts. some enterprising souls in the gypsy community have also been using the human right act to protect their 'right' to camp where they like and ignore planning laws.

now why are people unhappy about this? well if someone puts up a garden shed or a minor extension to his house, then the council may refuse them permission, and if they have already built it, they can force them (through the courts if necessary) to remove it. however if travellers set up a ****-off huge illegal camp, trash the area, and cause problems for residents then the council or the police can't touch them. now what this boils down to (and for some reason this doesn't appear anywhere in laz's post...) is that there is one rule for ordinary people and another for a minority of travellers.

the tories want to make planning laws apply to everyone equally, what a bunch of bastards eh...

a couple of interesting facts

- the government recently spent £30 million (on top of a huge number of lottery grants) on sprucing up legal camp sites
- there are currently over 4000 illegal gypsy camps in the UK
- cleaning up after travellers at a site in nazeing (essex) has cost taxpayers an estimated £450,000

[Alexander's Horse]

Cockney's post is a perfect example of how by picking on gypsies the tories let the genie out of the bottle and then people link it to a whole lot of other grievances with government

Which leads me to conclude many Britons are not smarter.

Notice the "they are getting something I'm not" theme and the "I have to obey the planning laws but they don't" themes in his post? He even managed to work in anti-discrimination laws. Well done!

Just what I was talking about

The same happened here.

[C0ckney]

AH, point out what is wrong with my post then.

or better yet come back when you know what you are talking about :/

[Alexander's Horse]

why? they've got you hook line and sinker.

[C0ckney]

so you don't know what you are on about, glad we cleared that one up

[Alexander's Horse]

Its more a case of all people have to do is compare my post about the political strategy to what you wrote to see for themselves exactly what I am talking about.

This is not about gypsies at all really. Its about moving voters like you to the right.

[C0ckney]

well you might be right about that. except the tories didn't start this whole thing, in fact until the sun started its campaign (which was a few weeks ago) the tories hardly had a word to say about the issue.

this isn't some grand plan hatched by michael howard

[Dinner]

So are British gypsies the same as Eastern European gypsies (meaning a different ethnic group from northern India) or are they just white people who move around like trailer trash in America? Either way I don't see to man problems with making Tresspassing a crime since the US and Canada already do this and society seems to have survived.

[Alexander's Horse]

That's how its done - they get their friends in the tabloid media and talkback raido to run it first, no smoking gun, then they pick it up

[C0ckney]

well seeing as how the sun has backed labour in two elections running i'd say your logic is a bit flawed...

oerdin, travellers aren't the same as romany gypsies, they tend to be from ireland, but they can come from anywhere.

[Alexander's Horse]

The Sun backed Blair because Blair backed Bush on Iraq - all the 100 or so Murdoch media outlets around the world did that on orders from the boss.

Blair knows he has to keep backing Bush to keep the Murdoch empire on side. That could save him from the Tory onslaught. If Murdoch thinks Blair can deliver on his political and commercial interests he won't necessarily go in hard in support of the tories. Murdoch is completely mercenary about these things. He's backed Labor governments here too when it suited him.

Facing down the left of the party was crucial to Blair's electoral success and media support. Don't expect any British troop withdrawals from Iraq any time soon

[C0ckney]

what's your point? the sun has backed blair since 1997.

[Alexander's Horse]

right - and Blair wants to keep that support - that is my point

[Spiffor]

BTW, AH, I didn't know you could provide such amazingly accurate political analysis (no sarcasm). Have you taken much time to ponder this strategy? Please tell more, it's an extremely interesting read

[C0ckney]

a minute ago the point was that this was some tory plan to move people to the right, which isn't the point anymore, because it isn't true...

so the point now is that murdoch wants to use his media empire to have influence in politics, well no [kidding] sherlock.

i don't see much of a point here i'm afraid.