Do you support grade/discipline based segregation in schools ?

[Flubber]

Why was bilingual education seen as worse?? I know that here, the students in Frnch immersion almost always come from the top students and in fact I know some programs where students have to maintain pretty high averages in order to stay in the program

[Mrs. Tuberski]

While reading this thread I didnt hear one mention of the middle kid. How wants to learn but isnt that good at some subjects. Why surrounding him with peers at his level might sound like a good I dea however If you ask me taking the chances this kid has to get advice and help from the smarter kids might deter him from learning. In a way in our schools here we have an honors program if the smart kids want to join the can. Most intillegent people i know like being around some of the class clowns it helped with them not put to much stress and pressure on them if the should fail at something.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

And In my opionon those standerdized tests dont prove a thing. Some folks suck at test taking and can fail even if they are very smart. Some person could have a bad day and fail even if he is highly intelligent.

[Japher]

I agree with Mrs. Tubs

can vouch for this system's efficacy , not because it has been implemented in our school ( it hasn't ) , but because , due to some wierd coincidence , my current classmates are mostly of the studious type , and the effect on my grades has bee a nice increase of ten to fifteen percent .

What do you say to this ?

If your grades have improved than why not other kids?

Sometimes the difference between a 2.0 and a 4.0 is just a little encouragement.

Separating kids based on their gpa or the like is stupid. The cream will always rise to the top, no matter how strong the coffee.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Japher
I agree with Mrs. Tubs


Separating kids based on their gpa or the like is stupid. The cream will always rise to the top, no matter how strong the coffee.

NIce saying and I agree that the best will be the best no matter how you line them up.

But

-- will the best be bored when the schooling is catering to the middle child
-- will the weaker student be lost if the teacher goes at a middle pace

Or does the whole class lag while trying to help the weakest? The practical reality is that a teacher cannot teach at 30 or 10 or even 3 different speeds at the same time.

I see some benefits to separation by ability . . . I also see some benefits to classes of mixed ability . . . So why not have both? You can separate by ability for some classes and more randomly for others. Students get some teaching at their level but aren't totally segregated.

I went to school that graduated 30 students a year so none of this was possible except for some voluntary segregation by subject in high school. The result was that better students were usually bored although I did spend a fair bit of time tutoring a friend of mine in math ( he was university caliber in anything non-mathematical)

[GePap]

Originally posted by Flubber
Why was bilingual education seen as worse?? I know that here, the students in Frnch immersion almost always come from the top students and in fact I know some programs where students have to maintain pretty high averages in order to stay in the program

Yes, because in the UIS bilingual education means teahcing immigrant kids in their own lnaguage, and then teahicng them english as one would learn French or Spanish in American schools (certainly NOT immersion). The biggest problem is that finding qualified teachers who speak the language students are being taught in (90% of the time in Spanish) is difficult.

You end up with kids who are bad at both languages and at every subject.

I wish bilingual education in the US was akin to that in Canada..it aint.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

While Yes some smart kids will get bored. The middle road will succeed and struggle the last will just struggle. This is why tutoring is available. I helped alot of kids in my easy subject but as your friend was i am one of those that is math challenged. I had a friend in class that helped me, more then the teacher. Had he chosen to not be in that class and gone into math honors i would have been screwed. I do believe the choice needs to be that of the child.

[Odin]

I think segregating kids in elementary school or Jr. High is a bad idea, it is too early to too it, there are many people who are late bloomers. Once in Sr. High the students can go into either a pre-college course, which includes a few college level courses that are worth college credits in 11th and 12th grades, or a vocational course, which prepares students to find a job right out of high school or for a trade school or 2-year college.

[Japher]

Teachers tend to design lesson plans based around the lowest common demonator, and that does suck. However, a student that is able to prove that they are above that demonator will eventually move into advance course (AP and the like) or get better grades that will eventually lead to a better education.

The HS I went to was very heavily competitive amongst students and peers, and I thought that while this is good, it can also be bad. Your "get out of my way you are slowing me down" is not only selfish but derives the student from other lessons that school teaches besides what the teacher puts on that lesson plan.

Like I said the cream eventually rises to the top. That is why there are AP courses, that is why some HS allow students to forgo classes to attend Unis nearby, that is why when teachers identify students who need more attention they get it.

One of the guys that was in my classes during HS was probably the smartest person I know. He got a full ride to Harvard, got a BS in Chemical Engineer in 3 years, than a Masters in 1, and then a medical degree... And now, he is a teacher. He didn't know he wanted to be a teacher until he was doing field work in some 3rd world country as a doctor. Had he been segregated from his clients, or shielded from the world, we wouldn't have such a well educated and inspired teacher in our systems.

Defining walls encourages the creation of castes.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Well put japher. I couldnt have said it better myself. Schools arent there just for studies they are there i believe for social structure as well.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by MarkG
school is not just about geting knowledge. realising that life is full of "disruptive idiots" (of any kind) is a very valuable leasson as well

But life isn't full of "disruptive idiots" once you graduate from high school. University is very sedate, and so are all the offices I've worked in.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Originally posted by St Leo

Originally posted by MarkG
school is not just about geting knowledge. realising that life is full of "disruptive idiots" (of any kind) is a very valuable leasson as well

But life isn't full of "disruptive idiots" once you graduate from high school. University is very sedate, and so are all the offices I've worked in.

Sure it is Life is full of them everywhere. There is life after university. You will find them in the workfore, you will find them in the coffee shops, the bars, the library etc. Idiots are everywhere. The only way that you know they are idiots are because they are being disruptive.

[Japher]

I'm surrounded by idiots, here in the "real world"

I guess what HS teaches you is how to avoid them. If the management did it for you you'd never find where you belong.

I never really tried to avoid idiots since most of my friends are idiots.

I have very few book smart friends. Not because of a superiority thing, but because not many geeks like to go out and get plastered, or watch football until they are blue in the face, or know how to stop thinking for a time or two... I leave work at the office.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Japher
Teachers tend to design lesson plans based around the lowest common demonator, and that does suck.

Why is this? the only reason I can think of is that school administrators are afraid of getting complaints from the parents of the less intellegent kids complaining that thier kids are being "discriminated" against. The result? Classes get dumbed down. And who gets screwed? The smarter kids like Kuci.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Originally posted by Odin


Why is this? the only reason I can think of is that school administrators are afraid of getting complaints from the parents of the less intellegent kids complaining that thier kids are being "discriminated" against. The result? Classes get dumbed down. And who gets screwed? The smarter kids like Kuci.

Now this is a concept I have never understood. Discrimination agaisnt dumb kids. As a parent I send my kid to learn the basics the schools teach. I also encourage the social interaction along with the education experience. If the class is going to slow for my kid and they have finished all the work for that class, this allows more time to spend with me teaching them other things, or reading ahead to learn something new.All in all the dumb kids as you call them get a chance to learn and the smart ones have to time to enjoy being a kid.