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Age rights- draw your lines

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

    Isn't it counterproductive for that to be anything other than the age of consent?
    not if you think that the parent has rights until you are of some other legal age

    Jon Miller
    (in the US the two are sometimes different)
    Jon Miller-
    I AM.CANADIAN
    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

      Isn't it counterproductive for that to be anything other than the age of consent?
      The age of consent for sex has nothing to do with the age of consent for abortion.

      If two twelve year olds **** then who are you going to charge with a crime, even if the age of consent for sex is 16?

      Age of consent for sex is a protection granted to a young person to avoid their being sexually exploited by an older person. It isn't there to stop nearly equal sexual relationships between two young people.

      In other words, I don't see the necessary direct link between the two.

      I would probably grant anybody over the age of 14 the right to a private abortion on demand. For those younger than 14, I would grant them the right to choose, but would also require that the parents be informed ahead of time to give them a chance to discuss it with their child.
      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
      Stadtluft Macht Frei
      Killing it is the new killing it
      Ultima Ratio Regum

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jon Miller


        not if you think that the parent has rights until you are of some other legal age

        Jon Miller
        (in the US the two are sometimes different)
        This has nothing to do with parental rights. The problem is that IW is not really seeing why we have age of consent laws for sex. In my mind they're not there to enforce parental control of children's behaviour, but to guard against sexual exploitation of the young and naive.
        12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
        Stadtluft Macht Frei
        Killing it is the new killing it
        Ultima Ratio Regum

        Comment


        • #19
          It'd be faster for me to highlight which ones I don't think should be 18.

          Leave school - 18 generally, but really upon completion of secondary education (grade 12 here, whatever else is used elsewhere)

          Drive a car - 16, with graduated licensing

          Drive a heavy vehicle - 20 minimum, and at least 2 years with a full regular license

          Have sex - 14 with peer, 18 with anyone

          Become President - 30

          Get executed - not a supporter of DP in general, but 16

          Edit:

          Drink - 18
          Buy tobacco, etc. - 18

          Second Edit: fixed typo
          Last edited by Kontiki; March 14, 2005, 15:07.
          "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
          "you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
          "I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident

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          • #20
            Originally posted by KrazyHorse
            This has nothing to do with parental rights. The problem is that IW is not really seeing why we have age of consent laws for sex. In my mind they're not there to enforce parental control of children's behaviour, but to guard against sexual exploitation of the young and naive.
            I know what age of consent laws are for. Maybe I misphrased it. Is there a more elegant term for "the age at which you are legally permitted to have sex"?

            If you allow abortions only for those over 16, but you allow 14 year olds to have sex, then you get 14/15 year olds bearing children they aren't ready to raise.

            If you allow abortions to anyone above 14, but say that you can only have sex at 16, then your laws are inconsistant, and you'll get 14/15s having sex anyway because they know they can get abortions.

            Having them set to the same age should reduce the occurance of either circumstance.

            I would probably grant anybody over the age of 14 the right to a private abortion on demand. For those younger than 14, I would grant them the right to choose, but would also require that the parents be informed ahead of time to give them a chance to discuss it with their child.
            Yes, I would do the same, based on the fact that I have 14 as the age at which you are legally permitted to have sex.
            Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
            "I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis

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            • #21
              I want to know why some people feel so threatened by the political power of young adults that they support a constitutional ban limiting it.

              If somebody is considered an adult under all other aspects of the law (they have the legal responsibility to feed and clothe themselves, and are fully criminally responsible for their actions) then what right do you have to limit their political power?

              If somebody has all the responsibilities of every other citizen then they must be granted all the rights of every other citizen. It's not like anybody under 35 is going to get to be President anyway. If you've forgotten, young people don't vote and no 50 year old is going to vote an 18 year old into the presidency.
              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
              Stadtluft Macht Frei
              Killing it is the new killing it
              Ultima Ratio Regum

              Comment


              • #22
                I don't understand those who put the age at which you can adopt higher than the age at which you can get married. Presumably, if your married, you can choose to have kids. If you can have kids on your own, why can't you adopt?
                "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
                "you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
                "I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident

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                • #23
                  Re: Age rights- draw your lines

                  The problem is that there are two tracks. One is for those whose parents baby them and support them. They are generally somewhat dependent on their parents until their mid 20s. The other 'track' is those whose parents don't support them at all. They often need to be working to support themselves before 18.

                  To cover both these tracks I would suggest that when your parents quit claiming you on taxes, than (for some) you can pick the [] age.

                  1- Leave full-time education.

                  22 [16]

                  2- Drive a car.

                  18 [16]

                  3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.

                  22 [16]

                  4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.

                  18 [16]

                  5- Have sex.

                  18 [16]

                  6- Buy porn.

                  16 [16]

                  7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.

                  22 [16]

                  8- Get married.

                  22 [16]

                  9- See front-line service in the army.

                  22 [16]

                  10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.

                  16 [16]

                  11- Vote.

                  22 [16]

                  12- Become President.

                  22 [22] - really young people will never be president because of the money involved

                  13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.

                  22 [16]

                  14- Adopt children.

                  22 [22]

                  15- Gamble.

                  18 [16]

                  16- Get executed.

                  22 [16]

                  17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.

                  22 [16]

                  18 - buy alcohol

                  22 [16]

                  19 - buy cigs

                  22 [16]

                  20 - have an abortion

                  22 [16]

                  Basically if you are taking care of yourself, than you should have the right to things that those whose parents are taking care of shouldn't (their parents get to decide them).

                  Jon Miller
                  Jon Miller-
                  I AM.CANADIAN
                  GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                  • #24
                    1- Leave full-time education.
                    That's between them and their parents.

                    2- Drive a car.
                    18 on public roads, on private property, that's between them and the property owner.

                    3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.
                    No age, simply when they can prove to their employer that they are responsible, with liability falling on both the employer and the individual (in different ways).

                    4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.
                    No age, between children and their parents.

                    5- Have sex.
                    For peers, no age, that's between them and their parents. As for an actual "age of consent", I think it's hard to draw a line because it is different for everyone, however, 16 seems a valid starting point.

                    6- Buy porn.
                    No age, this should be between children and their parents.

                    7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.
                    The same as the age of consent, I would tend to say.

                    8- Get married.
                    Again, age of consent is a good starting point.

                    9- See front-line service in the army.
                    17

                    10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.
                    No age limit.

                    11- Vote.
                    Age of consent again seems reasonable.

                    12- Become President.
                    I don't really think any age limit should apply - it's not as if a 15 year old would actually get elected.

                    13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.
                    Probably age of consent, because we get into contract law with this one.

                    14- Adopt children.
                    Whenever the parents of the potential adoptee wish to allow it.

                    15- Gamble.
                    No age limit.

                    16- Get executed.
                    If we have a death penalty, I'm not sure that there SHOULD be an age limit for executing someone who intentionally kills someone else.

                    17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.
                    Whenever the parents will allow it, given that when the child is below the age of consent, the parents are liable for harm or damage caused by the pet, and above that age, the individual is liable.
                    Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
                    Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

                      I know what age of consent laws are for. Maybe I misphrased it. Is there a more elegant term for "the age at which you are legally permitted to have sex"?
                      The ago of consent for sex is not the age at which you are permitted to have sex. It is the age at which people more than X number of years older than you are permitted to have sex with you. There is no punishment for those younger than the age of consent who have sex, unless they have sex with somebody significantly younger than themselves.


                      If you allow abortions only for those over 16, but you allow 14 year olds to have sex, then you get 14/15 year olds bearing children they aren't ready to raise.

                      If you allow abortions to anyone above 14, but say that you can only have sex at 16, then your laws are inconsistant, and you'll get 14/15s having sex anyway because they know they can get abortions.


                      Again, false interpretation of the meaning of age of consent. I never said I was making it illegal for 14 year-olds to screw each other.
                      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                      Stadtluft Macht Frei
                      Killing it is the new killing it
                      Ultima Ratio Regum

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Re: Age rights- draw your lines

                        Originally posted by Jon Miller
                        The problem is that there are two tracks. One is for those whose parents baby them and support them. They are generally somewhat dependent on their parents until their mid 20s. The other 'track' is those whose parents don't support them at all. They often need to be working to support themselves before 18.

                        To cover both these tracks I would suggest that when your parents quit claiming you on taxes, than (for some) you can pick the [] age.

                        ...
                        How the hell does that work? When you go to buy a six pack, is the clerk supposed to ask you if you've been babied by your parents?
                        "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
                        "you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
                        "I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          IW, you should know that that's how age of consent laws operate today in all jurisdictions I'm aware of. Are you suggesting that we change the laws to make it a criminal offense for two young people to have sex with each other?
                          12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                          Stadtluft Macht Frei
                          Killing it is the new killing it
                          Ultima Ratio Regum

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            you get a check on your license saying that you are financially independent

                            this means that your parents can't call you a dependent and the like...

                            they alreay have to check your license for you to buy alcohol or cigs, why not have a thing saying whether you are financially independent or not?

                            Jon Miller
                            Jon Miller-
                            I AM.CANADIAN
                            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Even better, why require an age limit for buying tobacco or alcohol at all? This way, stores can sell to whomever they please, and can refuse to sell to whomever they please.
                              Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
                              Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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                              • #30
                                I want to know why some people feel so threatened by the political power of young adults that they support a constitutional ban limiting it.

                                If somebody is considered an adult under all other aspects of the law (they have the legal responsibility to feed and clothe themselves, and are fully criminally responsible for their actions) then what right do you have to limit their political power?
                                Basically, an 18-year old is not fully invested in the society. I think 18-years old may own property, but in most instances don't. Something less than half are dependent on their parents while in college as well.
                                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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