Another Iraq thread: With friends like that...

[Whaleboy]

I'd never thought I'd see such a prime example of a blowhard trying to cover-up his own deficiencies at debating with the pretension of being more competant than others .

[BlackCat]

Taking this aiming/hitting issue a little serious.

First some reasonable assumptions :

Since it was close to the airport, the road was a standard asphalt road, that is no bumping up and down for the car.

No evasive movements from the driver and driving at a steady pace.

The roadblock was on a straight part of the road - noone reasonably intelligent person will place it after a bend.

The shooter are placed on the road, maybe in the side.

Under those circumstances I would have no problem with both aiming at and hitting the engine with that Garand M1 I carried around back in 79, up to 200 m away. Heck, even with my 105 mm howitzer I could have done it (well, there would probably be some collateral damage on the rest of the car), but I wouldn't try it with the 12,7 mm HMG - that thingie was only good at hitting elefantsized targets.

I don't think that the precision of weapons has deterioated seriously since, so it is quite possible that they both aimed at and hit the engine.

It's only if one tries to do it from a side it gets problematic.

[Dis]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
In a separate development on Monday, the Bulgarian Defence Minister, Nikolai Svinarov, announced that a Bulgarian soldier killed last week in Iraq was the victim of "friendly fire".

"Someone started shooting at our patrol from the west, and in the same direction... there was a unit from the US army," Mr Svinarov told a press conference.



Given their long track record of these incidents, I find it very difficult to believe they weren't to blame.

Americans have had a long and bloody history of 'friendly fire' incidents...

It was probably some sub average IQ Hill Billy with a trigger happy finger. I bet when they fired at 'the engine block' they hosed it down on full auto...

Makes you wonder how many of these incidents are not reported when someone not so high profile is involved.

if you are going to bash the U.S. at least put our derogatory remarks in the appropiate format. Hillbilly is one word, not 2.

[Odin]

I must be the only Leftie on this site who does not spout crazy conspricacy theories. This was an accident; it's a war-zone, sh*t happens.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Odin
I must be the only Leftie on this site who does not spout crazy conspricacy theories. This was an accident; it's a war-zone, sh*t happens.

, and I was beginning to think being a lefty was a disease that inhibits normal brain function. Glad I was proven wrong.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Odin
I must be the only Leftie on this site who does not spout crazy conspricacy theories. This was an accident; it's a war-zone, sh*t happens.

Thank you. We often don't agree, but you have good sense.

MOBIUS: Nice try in bashing America there. This is a war zone and if someone is not giving clear indications of what is what, accidents are bound to happen.. no matter who is pulling the trigger. The fact it happened with american soldiers doesn't really matter, because they are human too and they make mistakes. Additionally, even if it was a trigger happy soldier, he does not represent the entire US military.

[One_Mean_Rabbit]

Originally posted by Odin
I must be the only Leftie on this site who does not spout crazy conspricacy theories. This was an accident; it's a war-zone, sh*t happens.

Being lefty is no problem. We need all sides together to get the middle ground for those of us in the middle. But really, these thoughts that we did it on purpose are just absurd. Stop reading comic books already!

[Adm.Naismith]

A lot of limited first hand info here, right?

I understand you can't read italian news on internet, because of italian language is a barrier for many of you.
Please consider many news you read in english are limited, and sometime biased against Italy.

First of all, Ms. Sgrena is a journalist that write and speak against Iraqui war, but she doesn't defend terrorists using cars as bombs, nor the attack against civilian. She declared yesterday she understand any western citizen working in Iraq is now in danger, also when she or he try to be of help to Iraqui people, working as a doctor or a journalist.

Not only Ms. Sgrena spoke about car speed (around 50 Km/h or about 30 MPH), but also the italian agent survived but wounded (he is a "Carabiniere", a kind of military policemen, now working as expert secret agent with the killed Mr.Calipari).
He is not interviewed by video for obvius security reason, but he declared to italian authorities and journalists the same situation: they already passed without trouble a couple of checkpoint, when suddendly a light came from nowhere (it was a patrol, not a checkpoint with proper signs - don't believe to some media computer animation). There was no time to stop, nor others warning, while many bullets hits the car.
At least one hit Calipari on head, and killed him, some wounded the other italian agent and Ms. Sgrena.

The wounded agent has been able to warn the italian HQ (crisis management center) just before the cell (satellite) phone has been grabbed by american soldiers who, after had identified him as an italian ally, called some medical assistance.
By the way, american soldiers kept the car, italian phones, and some others evidence that should help to better understand the fact (with satellite phone you can compute how fast the terminal was moving during a call, checking the phone call you can verify which number someone called, etc.). Italian police want to check that evidence, and we are waiting to see how collaborative US Army will be...

Calipari and his assistant where expert agent, they know the Baghdad territory and already spent some time in Iraq for military duty. They speak and read english, had proper documents and are allowed to keep personal gun from USA Army officials.
They alerted the USA HQ of the mission in broad, keeping details secrets for opportunity reason I'll explain later. When they free the hostage, they called twice for clearance on the way to the airport.

As some in USA are already (unofficially) admitting, someone down the US Army line of command doesn't received right info in time.

It was evening and was raining, so a patrol we suppose not informed (they were not a fixed check point, a good reason someone missed to alert them, remember this!), saw a civilian car turning a curve in a road near the airport.

It is a dangerous zone, where in the last weeks some fire has been shot against civilians and unnarmed people (journalists, some diplomatics, etc.) for fear of car bombing kamikaze.

Many people in Italy are waiting a proper investigation, but most of us italian, by any political parties (right, center, left wing, it doesn't matter) already suppose some USA soldiers in a war zone, most feared than not - for very understandable reason - shoted first, then checked.

The ambush theory: someone is underlining outside the contest - for media resonance, political reason and press scoop - some early declarations, that Ms. Sgrena and some others parents noted.

USA was against the payment of a ransom to free Ms Sgrena, and previus of her to free the two italian women (Simona Pari and Simona Torretta) working for non governative association in humanitarian duty in Iraq last year.

USA representative admitted they tried to stop any french attempt to pay for freedom of french reporter Ms. Florence Aubenas, and italian secret service where not stopped - still nor really helped - because Italy is allied to USA in Iraq war.

So italian secret agents were forced to keep some cards to the chest, while contacting the kidnappers, and waiting the last moment - while they already had the released hostage - to alert the USA HQ connection official, avoiding any early military escort but also any unwanted and very dangerous military "delta force" action.

USA patrol stopped shooting (I suppose when someone realized there was no terrorist inside the car) and was forced to admit the mistake ALSO because the italian agent already alerted italian HQ by phone.

We don't "hate" or "bash" USA for nothing. We don't want to be killed (for mistake, we believe until proved guilty) and be fooled too.

Sorry, english is not my mother tongue, so please forgive my many grammar mistakes.

Also consider I'm not a "communist", but an italian not really happy to see here some very idiot posts against someone was in an rescue duty, completing a succesful mission someone turned in a bath of blood.
I cried for 9/11th horror and victims, but I'm not prone to accept without critics anything USA is doing, going back in a blind idea of a vengeance.

Thank you for your time.
Marco a.k.a. "Adm.Naismith"

[Dis]

It was definately the american's fault. But the point still stands. It was an accident, and not inentional.

[Giancarlo]

"They alerted the USA HQ of the mission in broad, keeping details secrets for opportunity reason I'll explain later. When they free the hostage, they called twice for clearance on the way to the airport."

My source stated otherwise. In fact the Italian Intelligence Services DID NOT inform the US military of this ransom being paid. I am half italian (but not like that means anything because I recognize mistakes when it comes this). I however do understand the fact that Italy did make a mistake here in not informing the US Government or the military command (according to my own sources). Who should I believe? US Sources? Or Italian sources? Italian sources are certainly attacking the US Government and military without basis.

I think Italy should admit they are at fault for this.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
funny how these people so fervantly believe in something that just isn't true... blame america for your screw ups.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050307-120131-5769r.htm

Please Giancarlo, would you read your own quoted article in full?
(Just a few row below, if you don't mind)

Mr. Calipari and another senior SISMI operative concluded the deal for her release on Friday in Abu Dhabi and then flew to Baghdad aboard a secret service Falcon executive jet to collect her, La Stampa said.
At the airport, they met an Italian military liaison officer and U.S. military authorities issued them passes allowing them to travel around Baghdad carrying weapons, the newspaper said citing SISMI sources.
The sources said the Italians explained "the terms of the mission" and "the exact nature of the operation" to U.S. officials at the airport. Sources also said an American officer was instructed to wait at the airport for Mr. Calipari and the freed hostage.

So, in a secret operation something has been kept reserved till the last minute, are you really surprised? Don't forget US Army forces control Baghdad Airport and patrol the city, and italians agents landed there, explained them their mission and obtained the "passes" needed from US officer, to have clearance at the checkpoint the had to stop leaving the airport - so do you suppose they forget how to approach one coming back to the airport?.

funny how some people so fervantly believe in something that just isn't true... defend few american soldiers beyond any evidence of a stupid deadly mistake - as any friendly fire is - we already saw too many times in any army in the world.

Murphy's laws of combat operations...
** Friendly fire - isn't.

I suppose this quoted bumper sticker explain it in full...

[Giancarlo]

That still does not mean the US military was properly informed.

And apparently you did not read the majority:

ROME -- Italian agents likely withheld information from U.S. counterparts about a cash-for-freedom deal with gunmen holding an Italian hostage for fear that Americans might block the trade, Italian news reports said yesterday.
The decision by operatives of Italy's SISMI military intelligence service to keep the CIA in the dark about the deal for the release of reporter Giuliana Sgrena, might have "short-circuited" communications with U.S. forces controlling the road from Baghdad to the city's airport, the newspaper La Stampa said.

So this article is contradicting itself? I think the Italian security forces are at fault. I would admit the blame if I were the italians.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Who should I believe? US Sources? Or Italian sources? Italian sources are certainly attacking the US Government and military without basis.

While I already agree that the "ambush" or "conspiracy" theory is not credible, I would like to remember to you that President of USA J.W. Bush and Chief of italian government S. Berlusconi are declared (political and perhaps personal) friends.

Is not realistic that Mr. Berlusconi would have been react so hardly if it was clear the fault was in italian secret agents.

Please note that "La Stampa" is mentioned in your sources is quite a "right wing newspaper", or at least really near "pro-USA" position, not the politically left wing Manifesto who I understand some can blame to be against the war in Iraq - and biased from a USA point of view.

That said, I'll prefer you (and me) will believe in a serius investigation from both USA and Italian police (or whatever investigation force can be competent and credible to freely act to discover the truth).

[Giancarlo]

I'm not talking about Berlusconi. The manifesto? Should I take what they say as truth? Why? They are the ones spreading the allegations that the US targeted the reporter. quite frankly, go ahead and pull your troops out. We don't need them anymore.. if you want to backstab your allies for making a mistake that happens in war.. fine.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
That still does not mean the US military was properly informed.

Really? Words should have a different meaning for me, may be is my bad english...

And apparently you did not read the majority:

I red it in full. The part of the mission that was not declared was related to the payment and the place where the hostage was expected to be released.
The american officer was waiting for the mission returning, it seems... I hope he doesn't wait for some Iraqui carpets italians agents are supposed to bring back from shopping.

This doesn't change an inch about the fire contact between the patrol and the car.
Only the approaching path to the airport hasn't been defined in advance, but I have seen enough military to know you can't always define this details in situation as variable as escaping from a completed mission. Instead, keeping the information flowing to everyone needs them is a common military trouble (not only in USA army, of course).

So this article is contradicting itself?

No. It simply use the old media trick to grab readers attention with a bold title and "first message - first impression" top few rows.

Anyone can decide to read the article in full with an open mind or not. The final opinion can be your or that of the author, that's the only "freedom of press" we can have