At what point did German defeat in WW2 become inevitable?

[Dis]

Originally posted by Wycoff


Had the Reich conquered the USSR and the UK, I think that there would be little the US could do to fight the Reich one on one. By 1949 the Nazis would have had nukes as well, and they wouldn't have hesitated to use them against the US if need be. If Germany had conquered the Soviets, the war would have ended with a Cold War type semi-truce between the US and Nazi Germany (assuming that Japan and the US still go to war, with the US ultimately prevailing.) Would the US risk retalliation by launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the Reich? No, I don't think so.

I bet that there would even be overtures through inept Nazi Diplomacy suggesting that the US and the Reich should be allies, or at least not be at war with each other, given the large percentage of German blood in the US (something that Hitler believed would ultimately redeem the US).

That's why I think that Stalingrad and Kursk were the two nails in the coffin of the 3rd Reich. Once it was clear that the Nazis weren't going to conquer the Soviets, then it was a matter of time before the Soviets overran Germany.

how exactly would germany use nukes against the U.S.? They need an airbase close enough to hit New York city. Although technically they did own greenland right? but I don't think there were any airbases there.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Dissident
what about the resources required to "hold" Russia. You think the Russians would stand idly by while their country is occupied? Even the pansy french had resistance. You can expect much more from Russia.

Well, had the nazis played smart, most Russians would have welcomed them as liberators, because they had just been suffering from the rule of Stalin, one of the worst monsters in history.

That's not exactly the same as France or Yugoslavia, which were not oppressed before the nazi rule, and which had both nationalists and commies poised to fight against the invaders.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Well, had the nazis played smart, most Russians would have welcomed them as liberators, because they had just been suffering from the rule of Stalin, one of the worst monsters in history.

Again, this theory is full of holes. Stalin's purges mostly affected the party elite. Ordinary Russians were generally supportive, though other nationalities were not. The "Cult of Personality" was still going strong, and living conditions had improved. The Party had a strong grip on the country and was in no danger of internal revolt.

As for the nazi's playing smart, I assume that means being nice. Not killing or stealing or that sort of thing. That simply isn't possible for nazis. As I said before, they came into the Soviet Union to loot, pillage, kill the Jews and erradicate Communism. They could not have adopted a policy favorable towards the people because it would have been contrary to their reason for invading in the first place.

[Ecthy]

while we're at it - any release date set for HOI 2?

[Ecthy]

I sincerely doubt that the usage of nukes against the US would have been more likely than it was in reality. Remember there was little ideologic reason to nuke the US. They were just "degenerate", not "Untermenschen"...

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Wycoff


Had the Reich conquered the USSR and the UK, I think that there would be little the US could do to fight the Reich one on one. By 1949 the Nazis would have had nukes as well, and they wouldn't have hesitated to use them against the US if need be. If Germany had conquered the Soviets, the war would have ended with a Cold War type semi-truce between the US and Nazi Germany (assuming that Japan and the US still go to war, with the US ultimately prevailing.) Would the US risk retalliation by launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the Reich? No, I don't think so.

I bet that there would even be overtures through inept Nazi Diplomacy suggesting that the US and the Reich should be allies, or at least not be at war with each other, given the large percentage of German blood in the US (something that Hitler believed would ultimately redeem the US).

That's why I think that Stalingrad and Kursk were the two nails in the coffin of the 3rd Reich. Once it was clear that the Nazis weren't going to conquer the Soviets, then it was a matter of time before the Soviets overran Germany.

They had one in 1945 but was not able to used it. There is a book on it.
However we were going to fight the German along if necessary. Read the History of the B-36. It was going to be the German bomber from here or Canada. But the war started to go our way and so it was delay until 47.

[Ecthy]

you what? German nuke in 45? tell that to the tourists, it's just another conspiracy theory.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Sure, the air force was decent -- at least the Spitfires and Hurricanes. But the Germans could match those planes with the ME-109 and pilots of equivilant skill.

The 109 was a good airplane but it was slower then the Spitfire and couldn't turn as fast nor climbing as fast. Gering visited German pilots in northern France at the height of the battle of Britain and he asked the pilots what he could do to help them. The pilots responded with "Give us Spitfires".

[Winston]

Originally posted by Dissident
how exactly would germany use nukes against the U.S.? They need an airbase close enough to hit New York city. Although technically they did own greenland right? but I don't think there were any airbases there.

No German soldier remained in Greenland for more than 24 hours during the course of the war.

They made a couple of landing attempts to set up weather stations and communications facilities in Greenland in the early years of the war, but each time they were thrown back into the sea shortly by Danish military patrols. It was mostly in the North-Eastern parts of Greenland IIRC.

After these sporadic, failed attempts to maintain a presence, the Germans never bothered with Greenland again.

The Faroe Islands were occupied by Britain shortly after the German occupation of 'Denmark proper' on 9 April 1940, and Britain continued to hold the islands without German interference until the end of the war.

And Iceland, which was Danish at the time, was occupied on the outbreak of war, first by Britain and later by the US, and to my knowledge Germany never bothered with Iceland either.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
while we're at it - any release date set for HOI 2?

You can order it from Paradox's E-Butik now if you want the game.

[Ecthy]

Butik = Strickstübchen, no?

[Ted Striker]

When Ted Striker entered the war.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Winston


No German soldier remained in Greenland for more than 24 hours during the course of the war.

They made a couple of landing attempts to set up weather stations and communications facilities in Greenland in the early years of the war, but each time they were thrown back into the sea shortly by Danish military patrols. It was mostly in the North-Eastern parts of Greenland IIRC.

After these sporadic, failed attempts to maintain a presence, the Germans never bothered with Greenland again.

The Faroe Islands were occupied by the Britons shortly after the German occupation of 'Denmark proper' on 9 April 1940, and Britain continued to hold the islands without German interference until the end of the war.

interesting, thanks for the info.

and even if they did have a base, I don't think germany had long range bombers did they? I'm not sure how many miles it is to NYC, but it's quite a bit. just checked. It looks to be well over 1000 miles on my atlas.

They would have had to use a sub, and manually plant it in NYC with spies etc.

[Andemagne]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Ideally for the Germans Hitler should have died a week or two before the invasion of Poland then they would have got to keep the territorial gains he made but war still could have been averted. If that had happened then Hitler would likely be remembered as one of the great Chancellors in German history.

very interesting thought indeed.

[Ecthy]

would that have been good? when this country was remembering the July 20 '44 assassination, I came across another interesting thought: if Hitler had died in that attempt, he would have become a martyr and people would still say we could have won the war had he survived. how good would it be for Germany and the rest of the world if the territorial gains in the east would still be ours (there would still be war with France and the UK, mind), and the person who at the same time had Jews and political opponents put in concentration camps would have dies at the height of his fame?