At what point did German defeat in WW2 become inevitable?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
With Russia conquered probably not even the USA would have been able to turn the tide of war in europe.

How would Germany conquer USSR? Plans were made to move back to the Urals even after Moscow fell. Napoleon took Moscow once, too. He end up losing everything.

[Dinner]

The Soviets said themselves the government was on the verge of collapse. If the Germans had been less anti-slavic and more anti-communist then likely Ukrainians, Belorusians, and even former White Russian soldiers would have welcomed them as liberators from the communists instead of invaders. Instead they acted like *****es and pissed everyone off so they sided with Stalin.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


How would Germany conquer USSR? Plans were made to move back to the Urals even after Moscow fell. Napoleon took Moscow once, too. He end up losing everything.

The real advantage the germans had over the USSR (and Napoleon ) was their strong (and Hi Tech) airforce.

If we consider the hypothetical case that the Afrikakorps would have been used in Russia instead of Africa (and it contained a lot of the most modern tanks the germans had)
IMHO it would have given the germans an edge over Russia, as germany would have been able to strafe the russian supply lines and probably also bombard their factories which produced the feared russian tanks (like the T-34 or the KV-1)

[chequita guevara]

I doubt the Afrika Corp would have made a difference. It was a small unit. Rommel wasn't more brilliant than Guderian, who was on the Eastern Front.

As for the Luftwaffe, it was too spread out to be an effective interdiction force.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I doubt the Afrika Corp would have made a difference. It was a small unit. Rommel wasn't more brilliant than Guderian, who was on the Eastern Front.

And Manstein.

[Shogun Gunner]

On one hand the combination of England surviving the Battle of Britian then stopping Rommel at El Alamein showed that Germany could be stopped. Prior to these events, the German war machine looked pretty unstoppable. However, this morale building victories really on provides the opportunity for the allies to stay in the fight.

I would say that if Japan does not attack Pearl Harbor, Germany doesn't sink US shipping and also does not go to war with America, it's possible that Germany could have won -- especially if some kind of forced peace with England was achieved.

The only chance for Germany to beat Russia would have been two free hands to fight Russia straight up. Once Russia received support for the US/UK, it just seems impossible that Russia would lose -- even if they had lost Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad. Remember, they had moved much of their industry to the Urals to continue the fight.

[chequita guevara]

Germany committed 90% of its forces against the Soviets. I don't think another 10% would have made the difference if the USSR was being propped up. It wasn't the allies military contributions that helped bring down the Germans, but the fact they supplied the Soviets. If it was just a straight up fight between the West and Germany, we'd be speaking German today.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
I would say that if Japan does not attack Pearl Harbor, Germany doesn't sink US shipping and also does not go to war with America, it's possible that Germany could have won

That is another historically impossible scenario. Japan would attack the US, that's just a question of when.

[techumseh]

The Nazi's were, well, Nazis. So they couldn't very well be expected to behave like normal invaders so that the Russians would like them. They came into the Soviet Union to loot, pillage, kill the Jews and erradicate Communism. I doubt they could have done much to make themselves popular without ceasing to be Nazi's.

[Asmodean]

It's all a matter of production base and logistics. If enough countries gang up on you, no matter who you are, you don't win. Heck, even the U.S. of today wouldn't win, if the rest of the world ganged up on them (in a non-NBC scenario, that is).

Asmodean

[Wycoff]

Stalingrad or Kursk... can't decide. Also, the Italians were an Albatross around Germany's neck. What would have happened had Italy been competent? Germany wouldn't have had to waste resources in Afica and the Balkans.

BTW, some head Nazis were proposing that the Reich should treat some of the conquered peoples (Ukranians, White Russians) with dignity in order to gain their support. Hitler overruled them.

[St Leo]

Re: At what point did German defeat in WW2 become inevitable?

Originally posted by korn469
So my question is this, at what point does WW2 reach a tipping point where even a sudden ahistorical string of German military victories only slow down the allied advance and eventual victory instead of turning the tide of war in Germany's favor?

I'd say the probability of defeat became 1 when Hitler started overruling his generals with things like the No-Strategic-Retreat-for-Wintering policy.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The Soviets said themselves the government was on the verge of collapse. If the Germans had been less anti-slavic and more anti-communist then likely Ukrainians, Belorusians, and even former White Russian soldiers would have welcomed them as liberators from the communists instead of invaders. Instead they acted like *****es and pissed everyone off so they sided with Stalin.

YeaH, but after all being *****es was what the Nazis were all about. What you're proposing is sorta like saying that if Lions didn't eat Wilderbeasts they'd have Wilderbeast support. It just ain't natural.

[civman2000]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Dec. 8, 1941, when Germany declared war on the U.S. it was all over but for the cleaning up.

Indeed. A move made all the more stupid by the fact that the US may not have joined teh European war for a while otherwise (not that they actually started doing a lot immediately anyways, but...).

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Sandman
It was Kursk which really tore the heart out of the Wehrmacht.

I believe you have it. After Kursk, the Wehrmacht did not have the ability to match the allies growing firepower. Kursk made it just a matter of time.