"Red Ken" ruffles jewish feathers

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon

Like the ADL...

Now there's an organization that is fast becoming what it hated.

There are huge billboards up around campus advertising the fact that Jewish students should go to them if they feel their lecturers are being anti-Semitic.

Since the number of anti-semitic lecturers at U of T in my experience is nil, hat this really means is that their lecturers might criticize Israel or Zionism (which have many critics on campus, and many supporters).

Why dont you ask ADL what lectures they consider antisemitic, instead of jumping to conclusions?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
My god, it´s like trying to argue communism with Giancarlo... I´m bailing out before this thread implodes of it´s own stupidity...

it began with post number 3, which was idiotic. You dont want threads to implode, try avoiding generalizations about religious and ethnic groups.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Why dont you ask ADL what lectures they consider antisemitic, instead of jumping to conclusions?

Given that the ADL kept a list of anti-Zionist organizations, spied on them, and gave that info to the FBI in the 1990s, it's not hard to guess. The ADL does some great anti-racist work, but they also consider anti-Zionism to be anti-Semitism and have worked hard to quash criticism of Israel.

This is neither here nor there. Both Aggie and Kamrat X made some stupid insensitive remarks and ought to apologize for them, rather than dithering and going on the offensive.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Given that the ADL kept a list of anti-Zionist organizations, spied on them, and gave that info to the FBI in the 1990s, it's not hard to guess. The ADL does some great anti-racist work, but they also consider anti-Zionism to be anti-Semitism and have worked hard to quash criticism of Israel.

This is neither here nor there. Both Aggie and Kamrat X made some stupid insensitive remarks and ought to apologize for them, rather than dithering and going on the offensive.

One of the ADLs missions is to monitor and counter anti-Israel and pro terrorist activities, as well as antisemitic activities, as well as hate not directed at Jews. If you dont like their full agenda, you need not support them. That doesnt mean you should make assumptions about what they mean in any particular activity.

[Agathon]

Why dont you ask ADL what lectures they consider antisemitic, instead of jumping to conclusions?

Because I attend that university and I am not deaf, dumb or blind. Anyone there knows what is going on, and it is despicable.

There is a constant attempt in some quarters to tar anyone who disagrees with Israel or Zionism as an anti-semite. Everyone who attends a university already knows this if they are honest with themselves.

I find this particularly despicable since I have personally been involved in ejecting a real anti-semite (and a real Nazi and holocaust denier) from campus (at my old institution), a goal which I and colleagues of mine pursued with great zeal and at some personal risk (at least two people had their positions threatened over the affair - I will probably never get a job there after the letter I wrote to the Vice Chancellor).

It pisses me off that I get classed with that nazi sack of **** by some people because I disagree with Israeli policy and in some respects with Zionism. There is no logical connection between that and anti-semitism, even though most anti semites oppose Israel and Zionism. But I'd be willing to say that in my experience a far larger group of people oppose anti-semitism and current Israeli policy (many of them are in fact Jews).

It pisses a lot of other people who are active anti-racists off too. It is not a way to "win friends and influence people".

Despite the crap that has been flying, I'd still be active in getting rid of campus racists, whatever their stripe. That crap has no place on campus.

[Agathon]

This is neither here nor there. Both Aggie and Kamrat X made some stupid insensitive remarks and ought to apologize for them, rather than dithering and going on the offensive.

I'm only responding to the insinuations (not only in this thread) that I am some sort of anti-semite, or that all communists are (the Stalin crap).

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon

This is neither here nor there. Both Aggie and Kamrat X made some stupid insensitive remarks and ought to apologize for them, rather than dithering and going on the offensive.

I'm only responding to the insinuations (not only in this thread) that I am some sort of anti-semite, or that all communists are (the Stalin crap).

excuse me, you made remarks about me personally before i mentioned communism.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
That doesnt mean you should make assumptions about what they mean in any particular activity.

If you can't make assumptions based on their stated goals a well as past action, you can't make any assumptions about anything. As far as I'm concerned, the ADL is both good and bad, pretty much like most things.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
excuse me, you made remarks about me personally before i mentioned communism.

Exactly.

[lord of the mark]

Here is Foxmans own statement of his position. Many Jews, including many dedicated Zionists, dont agree with him, but hes entitled to his position.

'Blurring the Line
By Abraham H. Foxman
National Director of the Anti-Defamation League
This article originally appeared in Haaretz on April 4, 2004
Invariably, the most frequent question I am asked is, "Can't I be critical of Israel or be anti-Zionist without being labeled an anti-Semite?" Invariably, my answer is, "Yes, but ..." And it is with that "but" that I try to make the questioner understand how easily the line can be crossed between legitimate criticism of a sovereign nation, and the demonization and delegitimization of the Jewish people, its nationalism and its state.

I tell the questioner that everyone has the right to criticize Israel, just as they have the right to criticize the United States, Great Britain, Argentina, Taiwan or Nigeria. Even harsh condemnation of Israeli policy is not on its own anti-Semitic, and it is irresponsible to brand every critic of Israel as an enemy of the Jewish people. Indeed, I say, some of the toughest criticism of Israel is to be found in the Israeli press, which is as free and multivoiced as any in the world.

However, we have developed a number of litmus tests to assess when criticism of Israel crosses the line. Is Israel being repeatedly singled out for criticism and blame? Is Israel being held to a double standard - being denounced while a blind eye is turned to the excesses and offenses of other nations? Is it Israeli policy that is the subject of criticism, or is it the existence of the Jewish state and Jews as a whole?

The Palestinian-Israeli conflict has been hijacked, resulting in an explosion of global anti-Semitism. It has provided a camouflage of semi-respectability. The attacks are not about a nation state, they are about Jews. A hideous and grotesque double standard clearly exists in my mind. Anti-Zionism has long been a code word for anti-Semitism. We have had to define for ourselves when anti-Israel and anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.

First, let me say anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. There should be no debate about that. After all, what is anti-Zionism but the denial of Jewish nationalism? Nothing made it clearer than when it came out in the UN's "Zionism is racism" resolution. It is pure, simple, unadulterated anti-Semitism. What it says is what is okay, what is permissible, what is laudatory, what is universally accepted for all peoples in the world - self-expression, self-determination, independence, sovereignty - is not permitted to Jews. That is what it says. It doesn't say Irish nationalism is racist or Congolese nationalism or French or Palestinian nationalism. It says Jewish nationalism is racist. That is pure and simple anti-Semitism.

Anti-Zionism reared its ugly head in Durban at the UN Conference Against Racism, in August 2001, when all the ills in the world were shunted aside so that Zionism and the Jewish state could be denounced front and center as racist.

There are also the questions: Is the newspaper article or editorial anti-Israel or anti-Semitic? Is the columnist anti-Israel or anti-Semitic? We have developed guidelines here, too. For example, does a Pat Buchanan [a conservative American political analyst] raise questions of moral behavior, of standards of decorum of nations? Does he raise those issues across the board? If he does, then it is okay to question Israel. Then you ask, in all of Buchanan's writings, has he found anything about the Jewish state that was worthy of praise? Those who only find fault with the Jewish people, the Jewish state and the actions of the Jewish sovereignty, and never find anything that is positive, are anti-Semites under the guise of anti-Zionism and anti-Israel sentiment.

The fact is that the cumulative effect of articles by so-called anti-Israel critics leads to a blurring of the line of what is legitimate criticism of policies of the State of Israel, and what is the demonization of Jews. The result is the raising of society's tolerance level for anti-Semitism.

In the most extreme examples, this tolerance for anti-Semitism has resulted in the justification of egregious acts of anti-Semitism as merely an expression of opposition to Israeli policies. When anti-Jewish violence erupted across France, government leaders, the media and other opinion-molders were hesitant to denounce it as anti-Semitism, because the torching of synagogues in their minds was understood within the context of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Today, the international community sits in virtual silence when media in the Arab/Muslim world promote through their propaganda the most heinous conspiracy theories about Jews, because it is viewed through the prism of criticism of Israel.

Opponents of specific Israeli policies can argue their position based on facts and opinions, and they can expect to be challenged by supporters of these Israeli policies on the merits of such arguments. However, when that criticism is directed at the entire Jewish people or questions the legitimacy of the Jewish state, it is an expression of anti-Semitism. '

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Exactly.

And i would like to let Guev know, that while i have disagreements with him on many things, i dont hold him responsible for the statements of those who share parts of his position, much as i wouldnt want to be held responsible for, say, Giancarlos statements.

[Agathon]

excuse me, you made remarks about me personally before i mentioned communism.

Yes, you. Not Jewish people in general (whom you sometimes claim to speak for). And I stand by those remarks. I find your attempts (in various threads over the years) to insinuate that people like me who criticize Israel are somehow anti-semitic, annoying, untrue and offensive.

Frankly I find some of the things you say to be borderline racist, but I don't make that much of a big deal out of it, because I don't really know you.

But of course, you are free to disagree.

[Agathon]

However, when that criticism is directed at the entire Jewish people or questions the legitimacy of the Jewish state, it is an expression of anti-Semitism.

Lovely conclusion to the article. Thank you very much, you just proved my point.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Despite the crap that has been flying, I'd still be active in getting rid of campus racists, whatever their stripe. That crap has no place on campus.

Isn't the university a place of open discussion? I'd never get rid of those I deemed racists, unless they began to committ battery against others.

[Agathon]

Isn't the university a place of open discussion? I'd never get rid of those I deemed racists, unless they began to committ battery against others.

What if said person was.

- on the run from Germany due to his neo-nazi activities.

- a high ranking member of a neo-nazi organization.

- a published holocaust denier and anti-semite

- a convicted fraudster.

- a person who had conducted bizarre and illegal medical experiments on people.

- a person whose research program was investigating the experiences of Germans who had emigrated to New Zealand (most of whom happen to be Jews who ran from Hitler).

What would you do?

NB: all these things came out in the government inquiry into the affair.