"Red Ken" ruffles jewish feathers

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
And another thought: How come we accept words like "FemNazis" and "Grammar Nazis" without anyone even lifting an eyebrow? If someone wrote "SioNazi" in a thread title he would be banned so fast his head would spin...

I think "Grammar/Spelling Nazi" counts as a jocular usage.

You'll note there was protests against the use of "Feminazi" in Pekka's thread.

Myself, I'm in the habit of refering to high school (Sw: gymnasium) students as gymnazister, so I suppose I've got a very liberal attitude to its use as a joke/insult.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

However, when that criticism is directed at the entire Jewish people or questions the legitimacy of the Jewish state, it is an expression of anti-Semitism. '

So, if I questioned the legitimacy of, let's say, the North Korean state, I'd be a racist? The Taiwanese state? The Abkhaz state?

according to Foxman it would be. though in the case of korea and taiwan the argument would be that they already have a state - i would love to visit South Israel, or Mainland Israel.

The case of abkhazia is more like the case of Israel pre-48, theres a different reality now.

Look, i see arguments both ways. In the abstract its possible to argue international politics against an existing states existence. I dont mean to rub your face in it, but the reality of what jewish statelessness has meant historically impacts the moral discource, IMHO, though i wouldnt go quite so far as to say ALL antizionism is antisemitism. Much has to do with the rationales, the tone, etc.

Zionists have spent a long time debating whether a Palestinian state is desirable or not, as opposed to Pals becoming part of Jordan, or whatever. We have gone into the cultural relationships of Pals to other arabs, and the recent origin of claims of Pal nationality. I think we have learned that attempts to define another peoples identity and history leads down the path to bigotry - the best thing to happen to Zionism in the last 15 years has been the mainstream withdrawl from trying to define Palestinian identity.

[Zoid]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by lord of the mark

Originally posted by Kamrat X


But the pro-Israel and Zionist groups are constantly poking at that sore themselves. Shoving it in our faces, lest we forget that a horrendous injustice was being committed against the jewish people. The article quoted by lotm says it all. "All criticism of the state of Israel is considered racist and anti-semitic"

LOTM - no, thats the opposite of what is says. "I tell the questioner that everyone has the right to criticize Israel"

Yes, he says that in the beginning. But then he ends the whole article by saying "All criticism of the state of Israel is considered racist and anti-semitic". It´s like saying "I´m not a racist, but..." and then proving in great length that you are...

As for shoving it in anyones faces it was NOT the reporter who raised the holocaust, it was Livingstone. If you attack a Jew and he mentions the holocaust, the Jew is at fault. If someone attacking a jew mentions the holocaust, and the jew complains, the jew is at fault. The jew is always at fault, no matter what he does or says.

So we might as well ignore folks like you, since your reaction will be the same whatever we do or say.

Yes, the jews are always at fault, yada, yada, yada. At least you have a country to call you own. That´s a hell of a lot more than the palestinians have. So, don´t try to play the "oh, we´re so persecuted and everyone hates us"-game with me. I´m not buying it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
@lord of the mark: Could you please format your quotes and replies like a normal person? I do not want to put you on my ignore list just because your posts are a pain to read visually.

you will note i do this only when things get heated. sometimes i need to just get something out.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kamrat X




Yes, the jews are always at fault, yada, yada, yada. At least you have a country to call you own. That´s a hell of a lot more than the palestinians have. So, don´t try to play the "oh, we´re so persecuted and everyone hates us"-game with me. I´m not buying it.

the palestinians have suffered historically, and deserve a state of their own. That has nothing to do with Ken livingstone, or concentration camp guards. See thats why folks like Foxman see a link between antizionism and antisemitism - half the time the "antizionists" are really obsessed with Jews, the holocaust, and jews complaints about antisemitism without regard to mideast politics. Note that the nasty comments on this thread happened well before any mention was made of Israel or Palestine. That tends to get thrown in later.

[Agathon]

the palestinians have suffered historically, and deserve a state of their own. That has nothing to do with Ken livingstone, or concentration camp guards. See thats why folks like Foxman see a link between antizionism and antisemitism - half the time the "antizionists" are really obsessed with Jews, the holocaust, and jews complaints about antisemitism without regard to mideast politics. Note that the nasty comments on this thread happened well before any mention was made of Israel or Palestine. That tends to get thrown in later.

That sounds like paranoia to me.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon

the palestinians have suffered historically, and deserve a state of their own. That has nothing to do with Ken livingstone, or concentration camp guards. See thats why folks like Foxman see a link between antizionism and antisemitism - half the time the "antizionists" are really obsessed with Jews, the holocaust, and jews complaints about antisemitism without regard to mideast politics. Note that the nasty comments on this thread happened well before any mention was made of Israel or Palestine. That tends to get thrown in later.

That sounds like paranoia to me.

yes obsessive concern with the Jews is often quite paranoid.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

I think "Grammar/Spelling Nazi" counts as a jocular usage.

Yes, but at the same time there´s this big ass billboard announcing "Jewish related words ahead. The jocolar usage stops here. Or else!"

You'll note there was protests against the use of "Feminazi" in Pekka's thread.

Oh, I missed that.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kamrat X


Yes, but at the same time there´s this big ass billboard announcing "Jewish related words ahead. The jocolar usage stops here. Or else!"

try googling on zionazi. You will find its not a jocular usage. Raghead or camel jockey for arab should not be used either.

[lord of the mark]

"New York, NY, February 25, 2004 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today indicated its opposition to any effort to amend the United States Constitution in a manner which would discriminate against a specific group of Americans.


Barbara B. Balser, ADL National Chair, and Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:


We oppose any effort to amend the United States Constitution in a manner which could discriminate against a specific group of Americans. While religious communities should be able to decide for themselves what relationships they will recognize, ADL supports efforts to extend all the rights, protections and benefits of civil marriage to same sex couples. Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is as ugly as any other form of discrimination."

[Zoid]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

the palestinians have suffered historically, and deserve a state of their own. That has nothing to do with Ken livingstone, or concentration camp guards. See thats why folks like Foxman see a link between antizionism and antisemitism - half the time the "antizionists" are really obsessed with Jews, the holocaust, and jews complaints about antisemitism without regard to mideast politics. Note that the nasty comments on this thread happened well before any mention was made of Israel or Palestine. That tends to get thrown in later.

All things are connected. The nazi terror and the following Israel/Palestine conflict are connected in the sense that there wouldn´t even be a State of Israel (or in any case it wouldn´t have come in 1948) if there wasn´t for the nazi terror. The creation of the State of Israel is a direct effect of the holocaust. All the other countries were so horrified with what the nazis had done and what they themselves had done to the jewish people since the middle ages, that they gave them their own land. The situation in Palestine had already grown to bothersome for the british after WWII. Better to hand over the land to the jews and be rid of the problem... I´m sure that Israel would´ve fought its way to independence sooner or later but not as early as 1948.

But I digress. The whole infected mess with jews and sionism is the result of how Israel was created. True there are nazis and anti-semites who despise jews because they are...well jews basically. But others question the State of Israel and sionism as a political ideology. There´s a big difference there. A difference that´s being ignored by sionist ideologists, because "all criticism against the State of Israel is anti-semitic and aim to destroy Israel as a state and the jews as a people".

[Agathon]

yes obsessive concern with the Jews is often quite paranoid.

Obsessive concern with anything is often quite paranoid.

Note: it's the obsession that's the problem.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


try googling on zionazi. You will find its not a jocular usage. Raghead or camel jockey for arab should not be used either.

I´m sure that that there are plenty of women who would object to the use of the word FemiNazi and not seeing anything even remotly jocular about it. And while raghead and camel jockey is derogatory names on arabs as a people. zionazi is a derogatory name for a political movement. Not all jews are zionists, you know

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kamrat X


All things are connected. The nazi terror and the following Israel/Palestine conflict are connected in the sense that there wouldn´t even be a State of Israel (or in any case it wouldn´t have come in 1948) if there wasn´t for the nazi terror. The creation of the State of Israel is a direct effect of the holocaust. All the other countries were so horrified with what the nazis had done and what they themselves had done to the jewish people since the middle ages, that they gave them their own land. The situation in Palestine had already grown to bothersome for the british after WWII. Better to hand over the land to the jews and be rid of the problem... I´m sure that Israel would´ve fought its way to independence sooner or later but not as early as 1948.

But I digress. The whole infected mess with jews and sionism is the result of how Israel was created. True there are nazis and anti-semites who despise jews because they are...well jews basically. But others question the State of Israel and sionism as a political ideology. There´s a big difference there. A difference that´s being ignored by sionist ideologists, because "all criticism against the State of Israel is anti-semitic and aim to destroy Israel as a state and the jews as a people".

In a world with no Israel, a reporter would still have badger Livingstone. Might well have been a jewish reporter. Red ken would still have responded with his remark, and Jews would still have attacked the remark. Nothing to do with Israel.

[Agathon]

Not all jews are zionists, you know

The others are "self-hating" Jews, apparently.