French workers fight for the right to be lazy

[Lawrence of Arabia]

A professor of mine said that the problem with places as desperate as Africa is that any money that they get is going to serve immediate needs at the cost of investment in infrastructure. For example if you give them corn seed to grow new crops they are going to use it to feed the people. I know there is a lot of corruption and that is why investment there is lacking, but it's also true that they need more investment than any where else to get any return on their investment. The corruption is likely to remain, but they the amount of capital that would go to Africa even if there weren't corruption wouldn't be enough.

what the problem is? if the food goes to feeding the people of that country, then the farmers can use the profits from that to reinvest in themselves and increase production, and the govts can tax that to get more revenues. thats not why africa is poor.

[Kidlicious]

And I'm under the impression that not all African nations have so much corruption. How about Mozambique and Uganda? They aren't exactly developing like China, and they don't have very corrupt govts, do they?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


what the problem is? if the food goes to feeding the people of that country, then the farmers can use the profits from that to reinvest in themselves and increase production, and the govts can tax that to get more revenues. thats not why africa is poor.

The only reason some of the countries feed all their people is from aid though. Isn't that right?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

The only reason some of the countries feed all their people is from aid though. Isn't that right?

why are you changing your position? your orginal argument said that the farmers of 3rd world farmers instead of developing infrastructure or exporting their produce, are feeding themselves. you said thats the reason for their poverty. i disagreed. it makes perfect economic sense for these countries not to invest in infrastructure, because theres no use to have any if everyones starving.

and no, the majority of these countries have subsistance farmers who get along on very little food, but still manage to feed themselves. there are only certain crisis areas where all the food given is through aid. africa isnt poor because the majority of its people are given food in the form of aid.

africa is poor first and foremost because of corruption, and civil wars. if you look at relatively stable countries over the last 30 years or so (namely the Maghreb, and north african countries) you can see that they are no that poorly off.

http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/gdp_country_desc.php

#103 Tunisia $6,900
#106 Libya $6,400
#112 Algeria $5,900
#137 Morocco $4,000
#139 Egypte $3,900

there countries are ranked higher than India (#152) and China (#122), and are solidly ranked in the middle 1/3 of the world.

the world average is $8,000, although as you know, there are many problems with these numbers, since its an average and not a median, and oil producing countries distort the wealth etc.

however they give a good general indication on where these countries are.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
why are you changing your position? your orginal argument said that the farmers of 3rd world farmers instead of developing infrastructure or exporting their produce, are feeding themselves. you said thats the reason for their poverty. i disagreed. it makes perfect economic sense for these countries not to invest in infrastructure, because theres no use to have any if everyones starving.

I don't get where you are disagreeing with me.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

ok. heres your original statement. you said

A professor of mine said that the problem with places as desperate as Africa is that any money that they get is going to serve immediate needs at the cost of investment in infrastructure. For example if you give them corn seed to grow new crops they are going to use it to feed the people.

the first sentence

A professor of mine said that the problem with places as desperate as Africa is that any money that they get is going to serve immediate needs at the cost of investment in infrastructure

says that aid money is not going to invesment, its going to consumption. the second sentence

For example if you give them corn seed to grow new crops they are going to use it to feed the people

is implying that consuming is bad, and that they should invest instead of using the new corn seeds to grow new crops.

now. i disagree with this. i said.

if the food goes to feeding the people of that country, then the farmers can use the profits from that to reinvest in themselves and increase production, and the govts can tax that to get more revenues. thats not why africa is poor.

then you said in response

The only reason some of the countries feed all their people is from aid though. Isn't that right?

which has nothing to do with my response. thats why i posted this

why are you changing your position? your orginal argument said that the farmers of 3rd world farmers instead of developing infrastructure or exporting their produce, are feeding themselves. you said thats the reason for their poverty. i disagreed. it makes perfect economic sense for these countries not to invest in infrastructure, because theres no use to have any if everyones starving.

to again reaffirm my position and to attempt you to either defend yours or to retract it. (your original position being that consumption is bad, and they should invest it all)

however, now after writing all this, i realize that you think that the only way africans feed themselves is through international aid, which is of course incorrect. however, even if it was correct, that doesnt mean that they shouldnt attempt to feed themselves, or to grow their own food, which yet again, refutes your professors statement that consumption of their own food is a bad thing.

[Kidlicious]

I never meant to imply that consumption is the bad thing to do in that situation. As far as the profit goes I think there is not enough to allow them to invest in infrastructure, but I'm not sure.

[Ramo]

africa is poor first and foremost because of corruption, and civil wars. if you look at relatively stable countries over the last 30 years or so (namely the Maghreb, and north african countries) you can see that they are no that poorly off.

http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com...ountry_desc.php

#103 Tunisia $6,900
#106 Libya $6,400
#112 Algeria $5,900
#137 Morocco $4,000
#139 Egypte $3,900

Algeria stable? Are you insane?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

As far as the profit goes I think there is not enough to allow them to invest in infrastructure, but I'm not sure.

depends on the industry, whether is govt owned or not, and what type of industry.

state owned oil companies will certainly have the capital for investment in infrastrucutre. but that wont make the people rich, or create economic growth across the entire population. the govt will get enough capital to invest in roads, and the like, but there arnt enough jobs for the people, so unemployment stays high, and education stays low

large cash crop farms are always a good bet, but the agricultural market is very unpredictable, plus the 1st world subsidies its agriculture like crazy, meaning lower, or no profits, and they get pushed out by the better productivity of the 1st world. however, these farms are good for large scale employment, and a good way to reduce unemployment in the countryside, and to increase wages. revenues can prolly fund govt sponsored infrastrucutre, such as roads and ports.
the development of agriculture can also lead to the development of companies who store, process, and ship, leading to more jobs, many of these which require higher skill levels, more education, and higher wages.

manufacturing/factories for cars, shoes, clothes, are a great way to give the urban unemployed both jobs and education. property values increase, leading to more wealth for the people, and the whole support industry can spring up (truckers, import/export, steel mills) the manufacturing area is less subsidized in the 1st world, so profits arnt exactly going down. plus, the cheaper the manufactured items are, the more that will be bought. unlike agriculture, a demand inelastic market where as prices decrease, so do profits, the cheaper manufacturing goods are, the more people will buy (computers, cars, steel.) profits do not get eaten away by a decrease in price.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Algeria stable? Are you insane?

sure. between 1960 and 1991, it was ruled by a single party. no major wars, or upheavels. and in 1992 the army intervened to prevent the islamists from taking power and putting in sharia law. a civil war from 1992 - 1998 killed around 80, 100,000 mostly killed by the islamists. since 2000, its been pretty quiet

[Ramo]

Past 30 years includes '92 to present. The Civil War's still going on BTW. If you want to extend the period, before '62, there was an 8 year long, brutal war for independence with France.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Past 30 years includes '92 to present. The Civil War's still going on BTW. If you want to extend the period, before '62, there was an 8 year long, brutal war for independence with France.

aight, so i was a little generalized. however, 30 years of uninterrupted growth will lead to development, which is why algeria is one of the top countries in africa in terms of per capita GDP. how many other african countries had that? not many.

also, since you seem to know of the FIS, you should also know that they were mostly ex-mujaheddins, and that saudis financed their political campaigns in 1991 which lead to the destabilisation.

now since you know all this, you have had to have known that the FIS destruction on algerias main exports, oil, were minimal. In 1995, GDP growth was 3.5%, in 1996 it was 5.0% and in 1997 it was 6.0%. inflation also went from above 30% in 1995 to around 23% in 1997. these are not signs of hard economic times. not only that, algeria produced some 800,000 barrels of oil a day in 1997

[Kidlicious]

This is why I'm suspicious of the people who say all Africa needs is free markets, as if government planning were the cause of all evil.

In the 80s the world bank got a bunch of nations like Kenya to borrow money to grow coffee. The price of coffee was high so it was an easy sell. The thing is, maybe you have already connected the dots, the price bottomed out.

That's why I question people when they say capitalism and globalization is the answer.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

In the 80s the world bank got a bunch of nations like Kenya to borrow money to grow coffee. The price of coffee was high so it was an easy sell. The thing is, maybe you have already connected the dots, the price bottomed out.

the EBRD and IMF have a loooong history of going into countries, liberalizing way too quickly, and ****ing everything up, and getting them even more screwed. they are not structuralists, and put way less emphasis on structural reform (property rights, govt enforcement of economic rights, corrupt free police/justice/government.)
the EBRD and IMF believe that an immediate opening of the market will benefit everyone, regardless of their present situation economically and politically.

projects like in Haiti (or was it jamaica?), where a loan was given on condition that the govt stop subsidizing dairy/goat/sheep farmers all at once. the govt did that, everyone went unemployed, and the whole country went down the ****ter.

or in vietnam, where they gave them massive aid for coffee growing, including seeds, growing technqiues, etc, opened up their economy, and almost immediatly, the bottom fell out of the coffee market, and the project went bankrupt. you would think that they woulda given them aid for rice growing, shrimping, or other water intensive crops, areas where they have a known comparative advantage, and industries which are already pretty well developped, both economically and culturally.

and then they wonder why all their money disappears, and why all of their projects blow chunks.

[Odin]

The IMF is the ultimate example of capitalists being so brainwashed they don't realize the obvious.